I don't know how to title this. Are there many parents of between 4s and 10s here? Anyway, my little girl (known to some of you over the last 6 years or so as minxie) is as bright as a button, full of chat and ideas and creativity. Her teachers always praise her to the skies saying that she is well above the rest of her class in reading and maths, and is bright and popular (apart from being bossy), charming and compliant etc. But over the last year at home she has been getting more and more aggressive, frustrated, loud and argumentative.

I put it down to a phase about 6 months ago, but it does seem to be dragging on. It worries me because it is so intense. I hate the idea that she is accumulating some kind of aggro that will sit with her until she is grown up. I have memories of being very frustrated and angry as a child, and perhaps she shares that personality trait. But it is so destructive, I wish I could diffuse it somehow. Am i fighting against genes? Or is there anything I can do?

My son is 8, and I've been dealing with his frustration and aggression issues by giving him tools to recognize things that make him angry before he gets to the point of meltdown. One day, when he was having a great day, we talked about what makes him upset and angry and how he can let us know how he's feeling without getting past the point of reason. He has an angry space in his room, and if he's in that space we're not to go in it - we leave him alone, and he just sits there and stews. We don't send him there, he is to recognize in himself when he needs it, and we respect and praise his decision to use self-control and use the space.

I found that just allowing him to be angry, and giving him what he feels is control on the subject, is enough to get him to sort out his feelings enough to talk about them constructively - as opposed to us reacting to him constantly and escalating the situation.

He does lose privileges if he doesn't control himself properly - we've given him tactics in controlling his anger, and if he isn't using them then he does lose privileges like television or the wii. However, I do reward them back if he calms down and respectfully works out the issue with me. We'll also use that time to go over an "action-plan" of what to do the next time he's feeling frustrated, and if I see him a few days later starting to get wound up again I just remind him of the action-plan and he starts to follow it, ie. going to his space, sitting down and talking out what the issue is as opposed to yelling, etc.

I think with bright children we forget that they are still emotionally immature and don't have the coping skills we might expect a person of their abilities to have.

Poor minxie :(

I'm not really sure what to advise, River. I recognise the one set of behaviour at home and another at school. By all accounts, Bambs is an angel in the classroom with impeccable manners. Last weekend she ran over our dining room table in the nude, wiggling her bum Beyonce style. Wouldn't have been so bad if we hadn't had people for dinner; M nearly choked on a roast spud.

Life is calmer than it once was though. Maybe as she's older; maybe as we started to look for triggers to her behaviour. With Bambs, much of it is boredom so we try to keep some structure to her day, though it isn't rigid or overfilled as she has to learn to entertain herself. We have clear limits of what we'll accept (nude Beyonce isn't acceptable).

I don't imagine what works for Bambs, will work for Minxie, but maybe if you do as Korill says and step back, you might be able to see is causing the situations to arise. (Rather than blame myself for the difference in Bambs behaviour at home and school, I decided it took everything she had to behave all day and all her natural mischief had to find a vent somewhere).

Korill is talking an awful lot of sense. Setting boundaries and the letting them be within them makes sense to me. She does need to learn how to control her anger and frustration herself; you can give her space to do that, but you can't do it for her.

(Complete aside, but on the whole worrying about behaviour topic. Once I received a telephone call from the parent of one of Bambs classmates; she'd gone round to play and had spent the entire afternoon as a dog. On all fours, carrying things in her mouth, barking. In the land of the Wags, little girls talk cheerleaders and Bratz so the mum didn't know what to make of it, especially as Bambs wanted to eat face down like a dog too

It did worry me for quite a while that she doesn't quite *fit*, but ultimately, what does it matter. Little the sod now woofs everytime she meets the mum in question, which amuses me no end.)

Korill, that is interesting, I don't know how I could do an "anger space", and would be reluctant to create a space associated with negativity in her bedroom. I've only just moved her into her new room and want it to be all lovely so she can get used to it. She is extremely short fused at the moment. One second all is fine and dandy, and then she wants something, or somebody to do something, or wants to do something just as we are setting out the door, and if we don't jump to attention, within 5 seconds she is spinning around the room yelling in frustration. We have done the removal of privileges thing. It seems to make her even more fraught. She is coming out with things like "Today was the worst day OF. MY. LIFE. Mummy." and then lists in plaintive tone all the things in her day that upset her, from Daniel P. pulling her hair at school to losing some random small thing to arguing over hair brushing. It's just all these little small things that build up unforgotten and something else triggers and causes her to be furious.

She seems to want us to witness her anger. She doesn't seem to want to seethe on her own. She is a very interactive child, she always wants people involved in everything she does, and I guess anger is no exception. :?:

I think that's true. I also think that anger doesn't have to be a massive cause of concern. Children need to learn to be angry and how to recover afterwards.

Hi River

Have no kids of my own but just wanted to back up what Ruby said, from my own experiences. In my family, as I grew up, anger wasn't tolerated - my mother just couldn't cope with us expressing our anger, in any form. It's taken me a long while to understand and learn to recognise my anger and not be afraid of it. Expressing my anger is still difficult for me today, but the biggest thing I've had to learn is that anger, in itself, is not a bad thing. It's not bad to be angry. It IS bad to make everyone else's lives hell because you're feeling angry, but you can only avoid doing this if you've learnt to accept your anger, and to express it in a way that does not hurt other people. What Korill's talking about, more or less. So I wouldn't worry that by giving your daughter a place to go and "be angry", you're creating a negative space, really it's a positive space, a safe place where she can learn about managing her emotions. You've said that you get the feeling that she wants to express her anger rather than simmer over it, but again, encouraging her to do so in a manner that is not hurtful to others (yourself included!) is a really positive step.

HTH (or sorry if it's useless!)
Rae x

Thanks, that is reassuring Ruby, and perhaps I need to think of it in a different way. Not as a negative thing, but focusing on ways that she can express her anger without making all of us furious in the process, as you say Rae.

Not sure how to physically go about it though. Everything is everyone elses fault at the moment and she wants to take it out on us. How to channel that? Getting her to write it down? Write a story about an irritating Mum who wants to brush tangly hair or about a Dad who won't drop what he's doing to bake a cake? Or is that a twee idea?

River, you have described my 7 year old eldest to a T. Part of the problem is that she is far too similar to me so we rub each other up the wrong way. I have a collection of notes she has written to me telling me how awful I am, the last one asked to be fostered because a mum is supposed to love her children and I dont apparently.

It's hard when she is in full melt-down mode, but a lot of her friends' mums say they are in the same boat. I wonder if there is a hormone surge that contributes?

I sympathise River, my daughter was & is prone to fits of temper & it's tied up with speech & hearing issues when she was little, also a strong personality that wants control over her life & recognition by us of the ills, both petty & real, done to her. Factor in tiredness, hunger, information overload at school & it's a great breeding ground for unfocused rage. How does she actually want to express her anger, have you asked her? I know she wants to take it out on you but is it physical, verbal, what? Can you transfer that expression to a bean bag in her room or a toy she can tell her hurts to & berate in safety? I think writing things down, story or fact, is perhaps how you would like her to express it but she might need something more tangible? Really tough but she's an articulate child so it may help her to be able to be part of the resolution.

I did wonder about hormones, I know she's very young but E in prepubescence at about 8 or 9 was impossible & she started periods at about 12 so it's not unthinkable that it's having an impact. We talk a lot now about hormones & the impact on her (and me, of course), we have screaming interludes followed by dissection & agreement that we won't do it again....until it happens again .

Anyway, amidst my ramblings there is something about things evening out for a bit & then getting worse & so on. Try some strategies to help her express her rage & manage it but don't make it a punishment (I know you won't), because repressed anger is the worst thing I think.

I have no advice, but oh god, I can still remember hairbrushing days I would scream, my whole head would overheat and I'd go bright red. MumBaa just cut the matted lump out in the end

I have no kids but I do remember getting The RAGE when I was growing up, honestly it was like a red mist. My dad hung up a punch bag and taught me to box and to scream as I hit the bag. I know nothing of emotional behaviour but even now when somethings stressing me out, really making me angry, exercise is what I do to let it out and keep my cool. x

Oh! I still do this as well, if the pasta machine isn't working properly, and then The Bf breathes a bit too loudly, I brain him with it. (I am not being massively helpful, sorry).

River, you could take her lead on how best to encourage her to express herself? So, for example, if she's generally keen on writing stories and the like, then encouraging her to write about her stresses may be a good way to go. If she's not, though, then something else may suit her better - like OT's punch bag, or Bambi's beanbag? This might seem a little leftfield, but do you think she might be interested in starting anything like a martial art (I don't know what age kids start these things) - say, one of the defensive ones, or judo? For many martial arts there is a focus on emotional as well as physical self-control (am not an expert though!).

I think, from what you're saying, that she wants to be loud about expressing herself, so the more "physical" options may be more suitable for her. You're also saying that she wants to express herself to you, which is great too as it shows that she does want to share her feelings with you - but I wonder if you need to set some boundaries: so, for example, you could, when she's off in a flying rage, tell her/encourage her to express all the "RaaaRR!"-ness to the punchbag or beanbag or whatever. Then, when she's a little calmer, take time with her to talk through what was upsetting her. I guess, what I'm trying to say, is that just because she wants to scream and shout at you, doesn't mean you have to let her.

Also, I might have missed this, but do you have regular times you share with her, just the two of you? Times when you can both look back on any episodes and discuss what was going on, and give her the opportunity to chat about things that are getting to her in the present without it all building up?

And gin - that's so sad, those notes. I hope you feel ok! Kids can be so hurtful sometimes.

We would love to get to Korill's stage and are working on it. Can't say how successful we've been to date but it makes sense.

With R, doing something sedate when she is massively overtired or overstimulated helps even though it goes against what she wants to do, which is to become very, very hyper. I find stuff like DVDs or quiet drawing helps keep her calm until the meltdown phase has passed. It is the same every day around 4. The only thing that did make a difference the other day was a sleep in the afternoon, which is not possible now as she's at school.

Has she got a dip in blood sugar at that time of day? Would a small snack as soon as she gets to you at the school gate help? And maybe a carton of juice drink too.

We do that sometimes and it does help a bit. Well, until she gets home anyway.

Oh Gin! I get notes all the time. The latest was "To Mummy. I had the worst(second t crossed out) day ever of my life. love from your dauter [sic.]" Delivered with much theatrical sniffing under the sitting room door. It beats the one she wrote on the wall last year. "Mummy, I say I do not love you. Love [Minxie Surname]. In blue biro. I took a photo before I painted over it, it still cracks me up laughing. But that was an unusual outburst at the time. Now we seem to have them daily. If not hourly.

I am fed up with it. I feel like I am so low down on her respect list. I asked her today if she would ever consider saying "You are the STUPIDEST teacher." or "You are the MEANEST, NASTIEST teacher." or "I wish you weren't my Teacher. You're RUBBISH. I HATE you." like she said to me constantly today (substituting mummy for teacher obviously) and she said of course not.

So why am I so much further down the respect ladder than her teachers?

I am at the end of my tether a bit today. To be fair, I'm not fully well, which is probably making things worse as I feel sore and irritable, but I do feel a bit put upon. It upset me hugely when little man started mimicking his sister and saying "STUPID mummy" at me in echo, and Riverboy wasn't too helpful. It bugs me when he doesn't back me up, and just starts denigrating my parenting or housekeeping skills in front of them.

I asked/told him since he was so good at dealing with them, to switch off the TV and put them both to bed*, and I have poured myself a G&T, which is pure tonic water but I'm obviously shattered because I feel floored simply sniffing it.

*That was over an hour ago, have since diffused potential crisis by finding lost tooth (crucial if tooth fairy is to produce wonga...) and brushed remaning teeth and changed LM's accident pants, & washed offending bum. It sounds quiet up there for now. I suspect the boy has gone for the least controversial route and all three of them are curled up in a ball in our bed. Have yet to even properly gulp the bloody tonic water G&T, and plan to rectify that immediately.

You're not. I think she's being horrible to you because she knows it is safe to do so. She's probably more sure of you than anyone else which is why she's venting her frustration at you. That's not to say you should tolerate it obviously, but it doesn't mean she doesn't like you - quite the opposite I think.


This however needs nipping in the bud. Riverboy is being an arse.

That sounds like Minxie. She has always been a demanding strong little personality. I always loved her feistiness and always will, but it is a bloody nightmare.

After the suggestion further upthread of a corner for articulating anger, I suggested it to her, and she said okay, but not in her room, which doesn't surprise me. She doesn't spend much time there yet. It's not quite her space yet. That said, our downstairs is entirely open plan, and I'm still not sure how such a space would work. I'm not sure about the hormones suggestion. (She is only 6.) But her teeth are all suddenly popping out. Perhaps that's an issue?


You know, a little punch bag might be just the thing. Minxie is an extremely physical child. Perhaps there is something in that.

Oh, and now I'm reading this, Rae is channeling my thoughts:


Yes, This all sounds good. There is a karate club that has just opened nearby, might be worth investigating.

Probably not as frequently as we should. Practically speaking, Riverboy is away a lot, and I always have 3 year old Little Man, who is quite a clingy little creature.

On the contrary. You are helping me feel like I'm human and not some kind of freak arse for wanting to brain Riverboy with the remote control because the batteries are not working in Riverboy and the remote controls are doing nothing whatsoever no matter how hard I push the fucking buttons. Although the Remote Controls would probably just bounce off his fat bonce and he wouldn't even notice... (Note to readers. I am not violent, just enraged. )