Annoying work thing

[smalex]

It's my year end coming up so I've just been trying to catch up on invoicing and chase up jobs which have gone cold.

I sent an email to a couple I'd worked for. Including an invoice. I started their project in March 2017, took back plans a couple of weeks later. In July they asked for a few revisions, but yes, please prep the planning application. I did, sent them drawings quickly. Heard nothing (at all) until end of October, then they asked for a couple of other revisions. Did those, quickly. Nothing again until January this year, couple more revisions. Did those within 3days. Nothing since. Not a word. I sent an invoice asking for the money up to the submission of the planning application, because from my POV the drawings were ready and waiting to go.

They sent a really angry email back. We haven't heard from you in 10months, why should we pay, these were not 'suitable for our requirements'? and then 'I'm not sure where we should go from here?' I looked back and re-sent the email that was our last communication to them (I assumed they meant they hadn't received it, but it was sent to two email addresses, and they more or less agreed they had received it in the end). They kept saying they hadn't heard from me in 10 months and the drawings 'weren't suitable'. How. The. Fuck. Should. I. Know. That?!!

I explained that it wasn't unusual for people to go quiet for ages (whether they're hoping I quietly forget about it or whether life has just got in the way and its gone on the back burner). I know I should've chased it up sooner, but fuck, I'm busy, at every stage they'd taken 3+months to respond. I've always got back to them quickly so presumed they'd received everything. I'm not their mommy.

I'm so upset. Last week was a bit shit with that guy dying, and then I made a fuck up on a project (they've been lovely about it, but the material is wrong and its my fault and the enforcement officer has come out and now I have to do a retrospective and possibly even pay to change it- though the owners want to keep it as it is because they thought they were getting that in the first place). Anyway. They also said they wanted to continue with me if possible but would need more 'face to face' time not 'flying quick visits' (I sat with them 3 times for over an hour each time, made myself available by phone and email, as I do for everyone, they simply never asked or intimated they wanted more F2F time).

I told them I was really upset they were angry, please disregard the quote (TBF, legally, because I was stupid and worded my quotes in a particular way I can't insist they pay this- I'e changed the terminology some time ago to cover this). I am really upset, I honestly don't think anyone has ever criticised me for the way I go about doing this (being criticised at all is unusual but the manner in which they've made it look like I didn't give a shit is a one off).

Am I being a dick here? I don't chase people for ages because it often takes people ages to move forward. I often wait many many months to invoice people because of this, because I feel its right they have time to mull over their decisions. I should've chased them maybe 3-4months ago, but I'd done everything they'd asked of me, hadn't I?

[smalex]

Sorry. Long.

[nineseven]

Ten months does seem like a very long time but I think they should still pay it if you've done the work. So prior to this, the last time you emailed them was with an updated design in January that they didn't acknowledge?

In future, can you include a schedule of when you will be invoicing in your T&Cs, to manage expectations? When I'm copywriting I sometimes have an issue with clients not giving feedback on work for a long time (and therefore delaying me signing off the project and invoicing), so I've started stipulating I'd need feedback within two weeks (or whatever) of filing work.

[smalex]

Yes. I think they did receive it though, from the way they phrased something. I sent it to two emails. The ball was in their court. I realise I've not been great in not chasing it up but they seem to be angry I didn't even though it was left with them.

I don't really give timescales. It's that kind of lack of feedback which delays me being paid for ages too. I honestly don't mind that most of the time. I guess I need to add more clarity to it though like you say. Maybe if I don't hear back within a month I'm able to invoice. It's such a flexible process though, some people decide immediately what they want, some people mull things over for months. Some have one revision, some twenty. It's hard to think of ways which are fair to everyone. I need a 'don't be a dick about it' clause.

[ParisGal]

We just had almost exactly the same thing; a customer who received a quote in December, and rang (on Saturday naturally) to ask why they hadn't got the parts yet. It's not a problem for us in that we would only have lost the time it took to research the quote, plus they didn't try too hard to say it was our fault and weren't rude and ridiculous. But still I suppose a lesson to be learned that we should chase automatically after...? 3 months?

Our customers are more likely to suddenly realise that they need an order to be delivered tomorrow than to change their minds, but some of them still do what you describe, adding something, removing another, not paying for months etc. etc.

This lot sound like clients you'd be better off not dealing with though, if 3 face to face meetings and 4 revisions have them so angry and vindictive. They should pay though, I reckon, but probably the effort and stress getting them to pay is well worth writing off.

[nineseven]

That sounds like a good clause. Maybe there should be a follow-up email before the invoice? So it's less of a surprise.

[smalex]

That sounds like a good clause. Maybe there should be a follow-up email before the invoice? So it's less of a surprise.

Yeah I guess. When i thought they just hadnt had the email i coukd understand why they were mad to get an invoice out of the blue (but given they seem to be angry I didn't chase them up I didn't think their reaction was warranted. Maybe I could say invoices are due on submission of application, or if I haven't heard anything for 3 months. Then send a reminder after 8 weeks or something so they've got a month to reply until I invoice them.

[smalex]

This is just another example of the 1/100 people that makes you add yet another officious sounding T&C to your quote. I really hate it.

[smalex]

PG- I never chase quotes. It makes me feel hugely awkward. I know there's a risk they never received it but I hate being chased when I've received a quote so I just never do it. It's hard though, because obviously you look like a dick if they genuinely never get it.

[Froozy]

They are the dicks, smal, not you. They sound like entitled twats who want you to read their minds to come up with their perfect plan but don’t actually know what that is (why yes, I have spent the day talking to people like this, why do you ask ;) ).

Multiple revisions, conversations, radio silence for months at a time is not your fault. They are clearly people who are never in the wrong and go on the (very) offensive at the drop of a hat. Can you look at this that losing them as clients is a small price to pay to remind you to find a clause that works for you to avoid this in the future? Maybe something like payment due x months after first designs submitted unless further terms agreed and/or a % when you apply for planning?

[smalex]

I don't care about the money. I really don't. I really hate confrontation and thats probably why i back off from chasing people or insisting on rigid payment structures. It upsets me.

Sorry if it's been a rubbish day for you too frooz.

[baargain]

Having a rigid payment structure set up front might lessen confrontation? As the boundaries have been set early and you can refer the people back to them?

[Squirrel]

You’re not being a dick at all!

I do think that unfortunately it’s sounds as though you need to tighten up your invoicing process to protect yourself from idiots .

This is just another example of the 1/100 people that makes you add yet another officious sounding T&C to your quote. I really hate it.

Yes! It’s so shit. I agree with putting a payment schedule in the T&Cs, worded in such a way that if they instruct you to do any work, it will always be invoiced and they can’t disappear then claim that it’s not suitable .

I think I’ve said this before but my brother has had 100% success with small claims when he’s had to use it. Maybe not in your case but with future customers if they’ve instructed you, that means they have accepted your payment schedules in the T&Cs, and therefore they can’t wriggle out of paying. As Baa says that way it’s all set out from the start so both parties have the same expectations about this being a paid-for service whether they go ahead or not.

I hope this waffle makes sense.

[smalex]

Yes. I guess that's true baa. It's pretty rare for confrontation to happen, but I guess that's lulled me into a false sense of security.

The more I consider how to make it work, the more I realise I have to set a deadline for people to progress and make decisions. What's fair? 3 months? 6 months? I honestly don't know. Also, if we're in a slow but on going process of revisions should they be stuck with the 3/6months deadline? I don't expect anyone to answer this btw. It's just things which I can imagine might cause tension later unless I'm ultra clear. Like, you think you're fixing one potential point for confrontation but then you unwittingly cause another

[nineseven]

Honestly, three months seems really long to me. Why not one month? People are only dithering for years because currently they can.

[Squirrel]

I don’t really know how your work works, but could you invoice say every two months rather than setting a deadline for them to make decisions? Sorry if this is a completely unsuitable suggestion.

[smalex]

Well, it's a big decision, there might be multiple revisions to go through (which involve me getting things back to them), they might want to consult on costs with builders or seek outside opinions from kitchen designers etc. The average length of the design process is probably 3-4months/ several revisions. It's not that I just present 3 options and they chose. 6-9 months isn't that unusual. There's usually some slow on going dialogue though which is evidently where its gone wrong here.
Or should I say if I don't hear anything at all within a month I bill you? But then if they say, we're consulting the Dalai llama and then don't get back to me for 3 months does that count?

I need to find out what other people do.

[smalex]

I don’t really know how your work works, but could you invoice say every two months rather than setting a deadline for them to make decisions? Sorry if this is a completely unsuitable suggestion.

Hmm. Difficult. I'm really not trying to sound obstructive. I think it's easier/more transparent to bill at deliverable points of the process (when planning is submitted and then again when approved, for example). In most cases that works fine but there are more unusual ones when it sort of just dies a death or takes unusually long and then it's hard to know how to deal with that

[Squirrel]

What I’m saying is that I think if you’ve done any billable work for them, then you need to invoice them whether they’ve gone quiet or not. Invoices are generated on submission of plans/drawings/whatever and are payable within 14 days, or during the revisions/discussion stage you will bill monthly for hours worked. Something like that? So you’re not sending work out into the ether without being paid for it.

[Squirrel]

In that case then I think yes, you bill them after a month or whatever length of time you think is reasonable.

We didn’t pay my SIL for the plans she did for us and we did go back and forth for literally years with a huge gap in the middle . So I can see how this happens. If we’d been paying for it I would have totally expected to be billed after she submitted something, or at regular intervals, or had a clear understanding that her drawings also included any revisions discussed within 2 months and after that we’re into a new charging period, or whatever.

I think invoicing sooner rather than later is a good thing.