Ho ho ho! Merry Election 2019?

[Kenickie]

Fwiw, I don't see voting leave in the same way as voting Tory last week.

Did you read my link upthread from The Telegraph? That offers an opinion as to why the Tories did so well this time.
It's behind a pay wall but I can c&p if you're interested in reading.

Yes please! Sorry, my head is like a sieve at the moment so I clicked, couldn't read it and meant to acknowledge it but then forgot.

[Tsu]

It wasn’t just about Brexit. At least, not just about the actual, concrete reality of leaving the European Union.

That may have been the initial spark but had that whole national argument been handled differently – had the concerns and resentments of real people not been treated with open contempt by this country’s governing class and by EU officialdom – it might not have grown into a conflagration that has ripped apart the old political settlement and enveloped the public discourse in a miasma of vitriol and hatred.

I have written many times, in what must by now seem a tiresome refrain, about my shock and disgust at the shameless loathing which has been poured over the ordinary people of this country by those whose privileged existence leaves them utterly ignorant (one of their own favourite epithets, as it happens) of what life is like for those without their advantages.

First they tried instilling fear and when the great mass of Leave voters did not flinch, they insulted and bullied them, and brazenly wished them dead. As snobbery mutated into what sounded like eugenics, something snapped in the electorate’s consciousness. Well, the people have got their revenge. They have humiliated their tormentors and, as many times before in their history, refused to buckle.

The bizarre irony of this is that much of the patronising guff that those Remainer diehards threw at their social inferiors was deluded. The total freedom to settle and work in any EU member state they chose, which they rapturously cherished for themselves and their children, is largely mythical.


It is not realistic for the great majority of people (even well-educated ones) to believe that such unbridled mobility would be easily and permanently available. To make a living in almost any other European country requires fluency in its language and familiarity with its professional practices.

There are certain vocations in which skills and expertise are truly transportable but they are few and very specialised. (Quite apart from the difficulties of moving across a continent with a dependent family and strong local ties – to elderly parents, say.)

At best, this fairytale of European opportunity was a selfish conceit which did not acknowledge that for people with settled responsibilities and without internationally transposable qualifications, freedom of movement was just a mechanism for importing cheap labour.

But, as I say, it wasn’t just about Brexit. It is true, however, that it was a lot about working class (and a quite a lot of middle class) voters feeling “left behind”. Not just in the geopolitical sense of having been abandoned by the relentless movement of economic globalisation, but even by their own political representatives with whom they had once felt they had a moral bond.

An Opinium poll done just after the election shows, rather startlingly, that far more of the voters who failed to vote Labour did not abandon their hereditary party because of its stand on Brexit (only 17 per cent), but because of their dislike of the leadership (43 per cent). In other words, because of Jeremy Corbyn and what Alan Johnson has called the Marxist cult that seized the levers of the party.

What all those ex-Labour voters knew was that this was not their movement anymore: not only did it not belong to them but it was not even interested in them. Its campaigns of preference were about Palestine and Venezuela. Its chorus of gloom about poverty and the NHS sounded banal and uninformed.

Clearly, the vast post-industrial hinterland was now unloved, misunderstood and an embarrassment to a party that found its spiritual centre in the drawing rooms of wealthy north London (which, of course, is home to a disproportionate number of those who really do have transportable skills and qualifications.)

All this brings us to another aspect of the current political mythology which would seem to have come crashing down. This was supposed to be the election in which social media ruled. Whoever triumphed in the digital contest would seize the channels of communication to a whole new electorate. This campaign would be won or lost on Twitter and Facebook.


Except that it wasn’t. Labour and its frenetic activist army dominated the social media landscape. Its tweets were endlessly re-tweeted and its photo stunts were viewed zillions of times – generating far more views and “likes” than those of the Tories who did their best to keep up but never succeeded.

Yes indeed – Labour won the digital battle. And then spectacularly lost the war. So, it turns out that, even for most of those who partake of it (and a remarkably large proportion of the population do not) the Twittersphere and the whole parallel universe that is available on a mobile phone exists in a different space-time dimension from real life.

For quite a small segment of the politically hyper-active, social media may be hugely influential – although its primary function seems to be to confirm existing prejudices. But for the much greater number of real, grown-up, responsible voters it is irrelevant or pestilential.

Even more to the point, by concentrating on the denizens of this social media world, Labour ended up ignoring the real one with its urgent needs and fears. Not unlike Hillary Clinton who thought that privileged women worrying about glass ceilings were so important that the women in the rust belt states who worried about putting food on the table could be ignored. (She famously called those American left behind people “deplorables”. Remember how that ended?)

What are the lessons here? Maybe that politics has not changed as much as we thought it had. It is still about life as it is actually lived, about the things that grown-ups know matter: family and community, civil behaviour, rational public debate and – as Boris Johnson suggested in his speech after winning a stupendous victory – generosity and conciliation in the conduct of government. That, I think, will turn out to be the most invaluable point made by this election.

[Tsu]

Fwiw, I don't see voting leave in the same way as voting Tory last week.

Did you read my link upthread from The Telegraph? That offers an opinion as to why the Tories did so well this time.
It's behind a pay wall but I can c&p if you're interested in reading.

Yes please! Sorry, my head is like a sieve at the moment so I clicked, couldn't read it and meant to acknowledge it but then forgot.

Done on my phone so sorry for no headers etc.

[Kenickie]

Thanks. That's a fair point about social media (which has been acknowledged in this thread) and about people not being interested in freedom of movement. I'm not sure I understand this though: "Its chorus of gloom about poverty and the NHS sounded banal and uninformed." I'm not sure how you can not be gloomy about the current state of those things. I think in the campaign though they weren't clear enough about what nine years of Tories had done in terms of damage.

I don't think that piece makes clear what's a complete mystery to me - if you see Labour as a 'North London elite' and want to kick it to the 'governing class' how on earth does this translate to voting in someone like Johnson and a party with the like of policies they have for increasing inequality?

I don't want to insult your mum, Lily, but it does strike me as some cognitive dissonance that would lead someone to vote for a Tory because they saved your local hospital. I do understand that some people prioritise local stuff (although is that not just a version of the alright Jack mentality in putting the needs of your particular place above the country as a whole?) but I think in this situation when you have such a vile man in charge I can't understand how you can see past that. And I'm not sure that it makes sense that Labour voters were put off by Corbyn but Tory voters are focused just on local issues? Surely either the leader makes a big difference or they don't?

[Luce]

God, do we really have to have this argument again?! Haven't we all said enough? Sometimes I think that people just like to hide behind the "you're all mean" so they don't have to come up with arguments as to why they believe what they believe. I'd love to be proved wrong on that but I doubt Peroxide is about to rock up with why he votes Tory.

Whenever this comes up it feels like we all take turns begging you to tell us why you can justify your beliefs and you never do. So if that means you don't want to post here anymore then fine.

[Loralei]

I agree with a fair bit of that article, and the bits I agree with have been discussed here

I strongly disagree about freedom of movement only benefiting the privileged; the greatest threat of closed borders is to the NHS and supply chain (we are already seeing the effects of a shortage of agricultural workers), which the least privileged rely on far more than the wealthy. And it's hypocritical in the extreme to suggest that the Remain campaign have been patronising and then say that it's the others - the "grown ups" - who know what really matters, not to mention naive to suggest people care more about "rational public debate" than whether they will be denied PIP and/or need a food bank. As for thinking Johnson will bring conciliation

But yes, most people on here agree that Corbyn and the obsession with the new (largely young, tech confident) membership was a huge part of last week's disastrous result. The Leave voters may well have got their revenge by humiliating the Labour party, but that doesn't mean it won't be a phyrric victory.

[Kenickie]

Also, I have to say that some of the stuff that's been posted about leave voters has made me uncomfortable. I particularly found the 'ha ha, stupid Welsh people voting to leave' stuff unpleasant. I recognise that, especially immediately after the vote emotions eye running high and that I'm probably a bit hypocritical as I've probably said unfair things about people with other views myself.

[Loralei]

Whenever this comes up it feels like we all take turns begging you to tell us why you can justify your beliefs and you never do. So if that means you don't want to post here anymore then fine.

I don't think anyone is begging, but Tsu has put forward some of the reasons behind her voting decisions so I'm happy to discuss it (reasonably, hopefully). I doubt either of us is going to have a significant change of heart but I said I was interested and I meant it.

[Luce]

It makes me uncomfortable too, Ken, in so much that someone I love deeply is a Leaver/Tory and it hurts to have people talk about my mum like that, it really does. But it also isn't something I can disagree with either so that is just a mind-fuck.

I know you meant it, Lora, that was my point. Whenever this argument comes up, there are quite a few voices who are genuinely asking to have the conversation but it tends to get ignored and that is frustrating.

Like I said; tensions are running high.

[Lily]

I don't want to insult your mum, Lily, but it does strike me as some cognitive dissonance that would lead someone to vote for a Tory because they saved your local hospital. I do understand that some people prioritise local stuff (although is that not just a version of the alright Jack mentality in putting the needs of your particular place above the country as a whole?) but I think in this situation when you have such a vile man in charge I can't understand how you can see past that. And I'm not sure that it makes sense that Labour voters were put off by Corbyn but Tory voters are focused just on local issues? Surely either the leader makes a big difference or they don't?

This was absolutely years ago - before I was able to vote, even, I think. It was an example. As someone who worked(s) in the NHS, has done since the age of 18, and still does, I figure she knew what she was doing back then. I don't know how she voted this time - as a family we've had our minds elsewhere! But that was her reason for doing something. You may not agree with it, but it makes perfect sense to her, and to a lot of other people.

I offered an alternative to the "alright Jack mentality" which was someone thinking their vote doesn't matter nationally, but they can change things locally. Up to you if you decide that's something people might have thought or not!

And I'm not sure that it makes sense that Labour voters were put off by Corbyn but Tory voters are focused just on local issues?

I didn't say that. I said that I saw a lot of stuff encouraging people not to vote for Corbyn, but for the party. So as someone who really, really didn't want Johnson in charge at all, I could see why people might vote for someone they don't like, if they thought the policies were something they could get behind. Which was mainly "getting Brexit done" and getting stability for the country. As they saw it.

Personally it could have been the Gerbils Running The Country party who wanted to introduce all manner of amazing kind policies and with Johnson in charge I wouldn't have voted for them. Which makes me wonder in turn if I am blinkered by my loathing of the man.

[Kenickie]

Yes, I think I'm very lucky that all of my family are very strong Labour supporters and always have been, and were also all strongly remain so I don't have to try and reconcile my views about Tories with people I love. I can see how difficult that must be (that's not meant to be as patronising as it sounds but I can't think of a better way to express it).

[Green]

I would never dream of calling anyone any names just because they hold a different view to me.

What do you class "calling names"? I don't see expressing an opinion that Tory voters tend to be ill informed and often primarily motivated by self interest as name calling.

Politics has become vicious yes, but it is hardly surprising. Austerity led to people dying, I personally think things have gone way beyond a polite conversation.

[ParisGal]

I think it's ridiculous to say that EU mobility is a myth since people aren't particularly likely to pack up and move to Italy because they don't speak Italian, and have elderly parents in the UK. However I do understand that quite a lot of people voted leave because of things like the financial policies in Europe - and indeed the other point about EU migration, which I agree is unfair, whereby a company can employ e.g. a Polish worker in France, at French minimum wage, but only pay Polish NI and pension etc. making it absolutely just a mechanism for cheap labour. Personally I don't believe the alternative proposed by the UK was in any way better, but I know several older people, including my fairly left-wing dad, whose hearts lean to Leave. Dad voted Remain because I said it was better for me, but otherwise wouldn't have.

As for voting Conservative this time, the only reason I can imagine is that one honestly believes that they will do the things they say they will (50 000 nurses....) and haven't in the past 9 years because of the parliamentary majority issue.

[Kenickie]

Like I said, I don't want to make this about your mum but I don't think the Tories have ever been a party who've benefitted the NHS.

I guess my point is that regardless of liking some of the policies, I'm surprised that anyone could tacitly endorse Johnson. It's a bit like Mussolini and the trains. That might sound a bit overly dramatic or extreme but, like I said, 'austerity' measures have been killing people. Obviously Johnson isn't quite at that level so it's an exaggeration but I'm scared that things might head in that direction. And yes, I know that the train thing is a myth, which is why it's a good comparison with all the lies Johnson is pedalling.

[Luce]

I would never dream of calling anyone any names just because they hold a different view to me.

Politics has become vicious yes, but it is hardly surprising. Austerity led to people dying, I personally think things have gone way beyond a polite conversation.

I absolute see your point, here. It's a bit analogous to the point being made by people elsewhere that accusing people of being racist is somehow seen to be just as bad as being a racist, these days. It's a false equivalence.

[ParisGal]

I was just remembering the Jonathan Coe novel What a Carve Up! the other day, and wondering if there were any more formal sources that showed the point that the NHS was ground down by the Tories in the 80s / 90s.

[Dáire]

Surely the Telegraph would be better for a right wing viewpoint than the Mail, Daire?

I guess I'm one of the non helpful people as I don't know where you start with those kind of incredibly privileged people who vote just for their own interests rather than those of people worse off than them. I mean, luckily I've never had to use a food bank or been on benefits etc but I'd rather pay more tax and have the more vulnerable taken care of.

I forget which ones are paywalled :blush:

I've seen the point a few times of voting for the people who'll help you out the most - including a tweet in which young Tory voters politely remarked they had no intention of using a food bank, and aimed to get on the property ladder instead - which has honestly just never occurred to me. I suppose I'm neither wealthy enough to benefit from Tory policies nor poor enough to directly benefit from Labour ones. I'm far more likely to end up needing Labour's safety net that a Conservative tax boost, though.

When you're comfortable, what can a government even do to help you? What's on offer? I wanted the NHS saved, I wanted schools funded and improved, but ours aren't as bad as some places, and things to benefit the town. I wanted something to be done about tuition fees because at the current costs my kids can't go, so that sucks (I'm the first in the family to go to Uni, and the last, well that was fun while it lasted.)

But mostly this was about stopping the punishment of the poor and fixing things from the foundations up. Giving everyone a place to just start from. I can't think of anything I'd want the government to do for me personally; I'm lucky enough to be able to get on with stuff myself. What they can do is help those who didn't benefit from my upbringing (stable) and educational experience (good state school, Uni) - which are privileges.

[Loralei]

When you're comfortable, what can a government even do to help you?

I agree with your entire post, so am not arguing, but I am conscious that most of us are a short number of small steps from not being comfortable. A very personal anecdote, but fairly illustrative of how one's luck can turn on a dime, is that the majority of people in the US who have a baby as premature as mine were end up declaring bankruptcy, even if they have decent health insurance. I know lots of us follow Dr Jennifer Gunter on Twitter: she pointed out the other day that her sons were on oxygen for 12 months but her healthcare policy only funded six. All those people who say the NHS is unsustainable and should be replaced with an insurance based system are under illusions about how protected they will be. So while my duty as someone who's benefited from a great deal of privilege is to vote for those who haven't, it makes sense even from an entirely self serving perspective.

[Dáire]

Absolutely. An illness, a broken limb, inability to work due to caring responsibilities - how many months saved up have many people got? Some would be in dire straits from a house repair.

There's a US health bill going around twitter at the moment - $16,000 copay and thousands a month. The amounts are just astronomical.

[Morganna]

I think I do understand why people voted to Leave, even though I was (and am) firmly in the Remain camp.

The trouble I have with understanding why people voted Tory, though, is that it is the death of a thousand cuts (literally and metaphorically). With each thing that is taken away, and with each group that is scapegoated or ignored, something else about being British goes, and with it, we lose something else about being decent. Another protection, another safety net, another expectation, all disappear one by one, until one day there really will be no such thing as society.

In some ways, I suppose we all vote with a certain amount of self-interest. Like you, Lora, I can see that I (and 99% of us) could very easily need support at some point. Who can be certain that their health won't fail them at some point? So maybe it is self-interest that makes me want to maintain the NHS. As well as that, though, I want to live in a society where education and Arts are valued, so that we don't become philistines. I really don't want to live somewhere that throws kids out of care and onto the streets, or where families live in hostels, or elderly people are homeless - where anyone is homeless. I hate the thought that the police can't deal with crime because they are so thinly stretched, and lives are ruined by drugs and stabbings, and modern slavery. I don't want to hear about refugees being turned away, or having to spend ages in centres, virtually in prison conditions because they have fled torture and/or persecution. I certainly don't want laws to be made by a buffoon who talks about watermelon smiles and letterboxes or picaninnies.

All of that and more has been voted for by those who voted Tory, and I don't understand what they can see that I can't. What can trump all of that and make it acceptable?

Prox, I don't like to think that you don't feel welcome, and I hope you (and Tsu, obviously) stick around, but it would have been better if you had engaged with the thread before it got to 56 pages and then complained. If you had, most people would have talked to you, not about a hypothetical Tory voter, and the tone might have been different. As it is, the comments may seem harsh, but there was nobody putting another point of view, so difficult as it may have been to do so, you might have changed that a bit.