Racism

[Livilla]

I don't think he probably *did* intend to kill him, I just don't think he gave a single shit if he did. I think, also, that if he died through positional asphyxia it might be difficult to prove initially. The policeman is clearly a murdering bastard but there isn't going to be a quick solution to this. :doom:

In the UK, that would be murder rather than manslaughter (you can commit murder if you do something inherently dangerous - like making it difficult for someone to breathe for 8 minutes or so - and being reckless as to whether it kills them or not) but I think that translates to second degree in the US.

[Lily]

What is a more just way of sentencing do we think - by degree, or murder/manslaughter?

[Morganna]

I tend to think that intention is the issue. If someone accidentally does something that results in harm, it doesn't seem just to treat them as though they had intended to cause the harm as it was bad luck that whatever happened happened. Similarly, if someone does set out to do something and it goes wrong, then that is good luck, and justice shouldn't based on luck.

In a case like this, though, the policeman would struggle to convince me that he didn't mean to do harm by putting his knee on someone's neck for 8 minutes. I would probably say that if George Floyd had lived the policeman should have been charged with attempted murder, rather than manslaughter. As he died, then it is definitely murder, IMO, morally if not legally.

I'm not convinced that sentencing should be mandatory, though. In general, not in this case, where I think they should throw away the key.

[Roma]

I agree Morganna. I think 8 minutes is a really long time to consider that what you’re doing will cause that person serious harm, in particular when the victim tells you they can’t breathe. I assume the police would have had other means to restrain him safely if necessary.

[FiveO'Clock]

Our judicial system has different degrees of murder and manslaughter. I believe this fits second degree murder, however, I don't believe he will survive prison for long. I'm more concerned that they have not charged the other three at this time, surely they are accessories to murder.

[rosy]

If the policeman was the one on the ground with four civilians, you can bet that the three who didn’t actually use their knees would be being charged with felony murder which is like the UK’s joint enterprise (if this applies in Minnesota, I’ve not researched it) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43673331

[Ruby]

I don't think he probably *did* intend to kill him, I just don't think he gave a single shit if he did. I think, also, that if he died through positional asphyxia it might be difficult to prove initially. The policeman is clearly a murdering bastard but there isn't going to be a quick solution to this. :doom:

In the UK, that would be murder rather than manslaughter (you can commit murder if you do something inherently dangerous - like making it difficult for someone to breathe for 8 minutes or so - and being reckless as to whether it kills them or not) but I think that translates to second degree in the US.

Yeah, I was wondering that. I don't really understand how things like this work in the USA, despite having clocked up a million hours watching Law & Order.

[Zoomer]

It’s something that has always bothered me but it’s not for this thread.

Ah, go on, you might as well. Tbf, unless and until Epp and Five (is Five our last proper American?) come on to give us their views, I can't see this thread going much further, now that we've all agreed on the awfulness of it all.

I’m neither American nor African American (obvs).

The thread has definitely moved on, I’m just catching up.

No, I know you're British, but I thought you were living in America. Aren't you? Or have I missed an episode ?

[Zoomer]

Our judicial system has different degrees of murder and manslaughter. I believe this fits second degree murder, however, I don't believe he will survive prison for long.

Surely they'd put him in solitary for his own safety?

[rosy]

It might be a good idea for America to build a prison just for convicted cops, given that “they’ll have a hard time in prison” is sometimes used by the defence for them to escape a proper warranted punishment. eTA in case it’s not clear, this a tongue-in-cheek suggestion, not serious.

[olive]

Atlanta had a 9pm curfew last night due to protesters and whilst most of the protests have been downtown there was a planned protest near where we live North of the city.

The national guard and police set up barricades stopping people travelling to the planned protest area which is an upscale shopping and restaurant spot. There is outrage on the local FB page that people were having their constitutional rights violated by not being allowed to travel where they wanted to do. There’s
definitely an undertone of they are clearly not troublemakers presumably because they are white.

This is what people are in arms about right now. These fucking people.

[FiveO'Clock]

There’s definitely an undertone of they are clearly not troublemakers presumably because they are white.

This is what people are in arms about right now. These fucking people.

There are riots here too. I wish the peaceful protests would be allowed to happen without all of this violence.

[Lily]

People are marching here too now. Wearing masks, but still.

[FiveO'Clock]

People are marching here too now. Wearing masks, but still.

I assume, being British, they are actually marching in protest, not setting fire and breaking windows, etc..

[Lily]

Oh yes, so far anyway - one hopes. While I applaud them, it doesn't seem the wisest course of action right now, given that we are in the grips of a pandemic. But maybe some things trump covid.

[Luce]

Peaceful protests haven't been working though. I can understand the need for violence and can't bring myself to condone it. Especially when a lot of it had been started by white people pretending to be allies.

[Ella77]

People are marching here too now. Wearing masks, but still.

I assume, being British, they are actually marching in protest, not setting fire and breaking windows, etc..

British people riot. The London riots a few years ago were awful.

[rosy]

A policeman was filmed spraying mace on a 9-10 year old girl (while unlawfully covering his badge number) and a good proportion of the comments on the story on Twitter are blaming the child’s parents for allowing her to be at or near a protest. Victim blaming is alive and well.

The footage of police violence towards protestors is just horrific. I recognise that some protestors are probably being violent towards the police and that’s not being shown in these clips, but that doesn’t excuse any of this: https://twitter.com/jimmfelton/status/1 ... 41089?s=21

Warning, the violence in the short video is very upsetting.

[Luce]

British people definitely riot. Especially if they feel they have cause. I don't think anyone can say that black people don't have cause. Fucking power to them. Not that I think they're the predominant perpetrators of violence in all this. But I feel violent, why shouldn't they?

[Zoomer]

Yeesh! My American SIL's SIL*, who I've always thought was pretty decent, posted something on FB earlier bemoaning protestors blocking the highway near them. I found it completely tone deaf, at best.
I've just seen that she's been called out on it by a friend, and I really want to applaud the friend. I'm sitting on my hands.


*we spent a week together in Connecticut for my brother and SIL's wedding and have kids more or less the same age, which is why I'm friends with her on FB.


(My blocking out of names went really badly, but I can't be arsed to do it better. Please just pretend you can't see anything.)