Pistorius trial

[Ruby]

I have purposefully avoided any coverage of this. I had to decide to disengage after I found myself looking at room plans of Pistorius's house. I find the whole thing quite upsetting. I don't know why, as it's not like I'm personally invested and I'm not usually such a wet lettuce, but I feel as if I'm watching him get away with it.

I can think of a million times daily when I could use this smilie. :lol:

This celebrity trial has reminded me that I have an anecdote re Ken Barlow that I should take to the appropriate thread.

[Lily]

Ken! ...

Doesn't it depend what kind of gun he had? I am no expert (no shit) but some guns you have to reload and fire and reload and fire and suchlike and others you just go bang bang bang without stopping. So if he had time to think as he reloaded that makes it different to him just firing wildly.

[Kenickie]

Sorry, stupid phone.

I'm not totally sure of all the details, but I read quite a lot about it when it was the bail hearing, and it just seemed totally unlikely that he'd decided to kill his girlfriend. Obviously the accident explanation is a little crazy, but it seems very believable to me.

[Dáire]

It was a 9mm pistol, no need to reload for four shots. There's a video up of him using the same one on a shooting range.

[Kenickie]

Oh, and I feel a bit like I needed to disengage after the bail hearing. Listening to him just sobbing made me feel quite ghoulish.

[Korill]

But, for every intruder story where people may have survived/been less hurt if they had a gun, there's a story where the gun that was kept for self-defense ended up shooting an innocent family member or bystander. This case represents that side, not how amazing guns are for defense but how they can be used to kill innocent people. There was no intruder, so saying it would be great in case there was isn't relevant.

He killed a defenseless woman. Did he mean to? I don't know but this case surely shows why it's unwise to keep a gun for self-defense, not the opposite.

It is impossible to both safely keep a gun stored yet have it handy in case of a burglary/intruder.

[Dáire]

It is impossible to both safely keep a gun stored yet have it handy in case of a burglary/intruder.

I got into that debate the last time it came up in debate. If 'safe" gun ownership means keeping it in several pieces all over the house in a number of locked safes, it's really not going to be much use against a burglar. It also won't help you in court, because to claim self defence and not just revenge, you need to show urgent need to defend your life with no possible alternative, and if you had a few spare minutes to go to the safe, assemble the gun, go to the ammo, load it, then take aim, then you should have used those free minutes when you so calmly were able to do such a task to run. It just doesn't make sense. I don't really know what the solution is. Outright bans don't stop shootings, but they do seem to stop accidental ones.

Like I say there are loads of cases of family members being killed by guns, but I don't remember one where the shooter was prosecuted for murder and told they were a liar. All those kids who get the gun, partners shot bringing groceries up from the basement - they generally don't get prosecuted and the only thing that happens is another gun debate.

[Korill]

Exactly. Which is why I think standing in a kitchen pointing a gun at an intruder means the homeowner is probably an idiot and had his gun improperly stored to be a threat to every one else 99.9% of the time. People with guns tend to also forego other more sensible means of protecting/alerting themselves, like alarms and dogs and locks, because they have a gun in case something happens.

[Korill]

There was a case just in the US where a woman was on trial for shooting her husband and saying she thought he was a bear.

[Korill]

OH, and a woman that Minkie and I knew in another community (an American) was shot dead by her husband (also a chatter) and he claimed self-defense that she had a gun and was trying to kill him. He is now serving time for her murder. I'll find the link.

ETA Gah, I can't remember her name. Maybe Minkie remembers it.

[lorri_b]

I'm sure it was said the gun was stored under the bed on the side Reeva slept. So not only did he not check she was there, he was at head height with where he alegedly assumed she was asleep.

[Starry]

Exactly. Which is why I think standing in a kitchen pointing a gun at an intruder means the homeowner is probably an idiot and had his gun improperly stored to be a threat to every one else 99.9% of the time.

Knowing what I know of the guy I was talking about, I would 100% agree with you. I may be remembering wrong, but I think it's loaded and in a gunsafe. Unlocked, unless there are children around. To me that's irresponsible, but then his Facebook profile photo was him pointing a gun at the camera, so I think that says everything really.

[Korill]

We had many, many guns in our house when I was a child. Luckily, my dad always checked to see what a noise was before randomly shooting through a door. The guns were kept unloaded in several locked cabinets in our basement, ammo stored in locked cases, in a locked room. The only pictures with guns were beside dead deer/moose. This whole gun culture/gun selfies thing I just can't grasp which ties into people getting guns against intruders - it's a fantasy, a good guy/bad guy fantasy that needs to stop.

[smalex]

I really want to believe him, but I don't.

I'm surprised by how much I seem to care about it all.

[Livilla]

Outright bans don't stop shootings, but they do seem to stop accidental ones.

Yes, I agree. The number of accidental family shootings you read about in the US make my blood run cold. I am thankful to live in a country that by and large does not have a gun ownership culture.

I do think it is difficult for any of us, except the South Africans/those who know the country well to understand how different a culture and climate it is in that country. Someone upthread asked whether South Africa had a manslaughter equivalent, the answer is yes, they do. If the Pistorius case was completely replicated in the UK I cannot see any court going with a manslaughter verdict, even if it really had been an armed intruder hiding out in the bathroom, because firing 4 shots into a small enclosed space just would not be considered a reasonable use of force in self defence (which is the extent of force you can use as a defence to killing or injuring someone). In South Africa though if it really had been an armed intruder in the bathroom there is apparently every likelihood that he would not have been prosecuted at all. It is a different world.

And for an example of this, see the awful case of ex-Springbok Rudi Visagie. He accidentally killed his daughter shooting at what he thought was a car thief, and wasn't prosecuted, despite the fact that he shot at a car driving away from his property, i.e. with no threat at all to him.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/26/world ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[nick]

There was a case just in the US where a woman was on trial for shooting her husband and saying she thought he was a bear.

Mary Beth Harshbarger. She got found not guilty, too.

[Starry]

We had many, many guns in our house when I was a child. Luckily, my dad always checked to see what a noise was before randomly shooting through a door. The guns were kept unloaded in several locked cabinets in our basement, ammo stored in locked cases, in a locked room. The only pictures with guns were beside dead deer/moose. This whole gun culture/gun selfies thing I just can't grasp which ties into people getting guns against intruders - it's a fantasy, a good guy/bad guy fantasy that needs to stop.

You've hit the nail on the head there. His attitude is the only thing that stands between a bad guy an innocent people is a good guy with a gun. I think it's abhorrent and an outright lie, but that's a different discussion I guess.

I have friends who grew up with shotguns in their homes - for hunting - and not one of them would ever be seen treating them with that cavalier attitude.

[smalex]

Shit. Thats awful (the rugby player). That really is its own punishment. Imagine living with that, I just don't think I could.

[Lily]

Could he have been dreaming? I know that sounds really stupid, but having punched and damaged myself and a picture while I was waking up, I know it's possible, though it was hard convincing people of the fact.

[Tabitha]

He's never made that excuse has he? So I guess not.