Several people asked questions and were polite, but I didn't see Luce's remark as being insulting.
Agreed.smalex wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:07 pm It does also make me reflect on how I probably overly romanticise my view of the EU. For most of my life I actually didn't much care about being in the EU. Not that I thought it was bad, I just didn't think about it at all. It certainly wasn't the panacea for all ills, which I've a tendency to see it as now it's being taken away.
But how do you know there are not 'more' Leave voters like that? Surely that reinforces the point that Lily is heroically making - that discussion with people whose views differ from yours should not necessarily be about trying to change people's minds but to engage with them and de-demonising them (and you to them). The Leave voters I know in real life are in the category of Tsu's son (although in their case this doesn't translate into wanting a Norway type exit)Luce wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:53 pm Edit; thank you, that was a credible and well thought answer and remarkably similar to what my mum says - although she is against free movement. I don’t necessarily agree with lots of it but I wish so strongly that more Leave people were like that.
It still doesn’t tell me what perceived benefits we’ll get from leaving but I can appreciate the ‘rock/hard place’ argument.
Obviously it's difficult to say without doing a comprehensive survey of leave voters, but you have to admit there doesn't seem to be a great appetite for it, there didn't seem to be a lot of Leave voters saying 'hey, what about a closer arrangement like we were promised in the campaign?', putting pressure on MPs to come up with some sort of more compromised arrangement. The rise in support for the Brexit party during the EU elections (with a plain, No deal exit stance) and the victory of the Conservatives (who have some shambolic deal not at all like Norway or single market, and who have, at best, made it quite plain they're willing to go for No Deal if neccessary, with some evidence they're actually aiming for No Deal), not to mention vox pops on the TV, surveys I've read etc, seem to indicate a high % of leave voters aren't hankering after a Norway style deal.Montana wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:18 amBut how do you know there are not 'more' Leave voters like that? Surely that reinforces the point that Lily is heroically making - that discussion with people whose views differ from yours should not necessarily be about trying to change people's minds but to engage with them and de-demonising them (and you to them). The Leave voters I know in real life are in the category of Tsu's son (although in their case this doesn't translate into wanting a Norway type exit)Luce wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:53 pm Edit; thank you, that was a credible and well thought answer and remarkably similar to what my mum says - although she is against free movement. I don’t necessarily agree with lots of it but I wish so strongly that more Leave people were like that.
It still doesn’t tell me what perceived benefits we’ll get from leaving but I can appreciate the ‘rock/hard place’ argument.
You said they were being painfully polite. As if that were a bad thing.
I'm so sorry for your Mum Digs. Has the application been sorted out yet?indigo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:30 am I would really love to know what the Leave voters think about the situation that the millions of EU citizens living in England face. You know, for example, the 76 year old woman from Germany who has lived and worked here for over 50 years and for whom applying for Settled Status (because she can't afford citizenship, what with being a pensioner and everything) has made her ill with the stress.
Are she and people like her just collateral damage and/or snowflake remoaners?
My dad is having to apply for settled status too. With the added complication that he no longer has a valid passport, so my mum has to take him to London (he’s quite disabled after a stroke so this is a huge undertaking as well as a cost) before he can even get it sorted. All this after 40+ years of public service in the UK.indigo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:30 am I would really love to know what the Leave voters think about the situation that the millions of EU citizens living in England face. You know, for example, the 76 year old woman from Germany who has lived and worked here for over 50 years and for whom applying for Settled Status (because she can't afford citizenship, what with being a pensioner and everything) has made her ill with the stress.
Are she and people like her just collateral damage and/or snowflake remoaners?
Thanks, Ken. That’s reassuring that it shouldn’t be too arduous once he gets his passport.Kenickie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:05 am If it helps at all, my aunt found that the settled status application process was a lot easier than she expected once she went through it. She had a passport though, so I'm sorry it's extra difficult for your dad, Est. But yeah, she found having to do it quite galling after living here and paying taxes for forty years, with a British husband and child
Or maybe I was the only one being polite!