Ho ho ho! Merry Election 2019?

[Mountain Goat]

Yes, I think that this place has shrunk to a point* where we feel like we're having a chat/vent with friends, rather than a public discussion. That does mean it becomes cliquey and exclusive of people with differing views and we probably need to own that.

*this is a different thread, don't be going state of the boards, I can barely keep up with all the things I have an opinion about on this thread as it is

[Skips]

As the wife of someone with a disability that relies on the state (and yes I realise we take holidays, but we budget for those every month - not that I should justify this, we're entitled to not just live with basics), I'd be interested to hear from a Conservative supporter on how they feel about Learning, Disability and Autism funding dropping down to £0 by 2023. What happens then? What happens when we can't afford private healthcare? (Which J probably wouldn't get anyway due to existing conditions). What happens if I get ill and I have to take time off and pay for healthcare and J hasn't got a carer and I earn too much (hahahahahahaha) to get additional support? What happens if J has an assessment and is told that he may improve, but he won't? Nerve damage doesn't repair itself, he can barely get out of bed some days, let alone work. What happens if our universal credit gets taken away?

Will we become some of those people that shouldn't have holidays or a TV or a car or any kind of life? Should we squirrel away everything we earn to fund all our what-ifs and already be those people?

[Montana]

as someone who did put their head over the parapet to explain why I voted that way in 2010, I felt the responses I got were very measured. If anyone thought I was a idiot/selfish they certainly were good enough to keep it to themselves . I'm quite sure no one thought I'd done the right thing, I didn't change anyone's minds (although I didn't post trying to), but I think there was a spirit of understanding about it. From my very honest opinion.

Yes, but you were posting as someone who regretted her actions rather than someone standing by them. I feel that it would be a very thankless task for someone who stood by their vote (whether that's Leave in 2016 or Tory now) to post on here as an isolated voice and even just argue the points against so many, let alone withstand the level of reproach.

I voted Remain and anti Tory and feel both those views very strongly. However, I in no way feel that the majority of people who voted opposite are stupid or immoral, and I do find the vehemence uncomfortable sometimes (while at the same time suspecting that I may have contributed to it).

[Morganna]

I'm going back a bit, but in response to people not understanding what they haven't lived, I think it's more complex than just the better off not understanding the lives of the poor.

I think Morgs has a good point too. Poverty only exists because you don't pull up your own bootstraps, or whatever it is.

Its the concept of relative poverty, I guess. Sure there's very few kids running around barefoot but there is so much information about food bank use that to me, it can only be wilful ignorance. It's that thing of people imagining that poverty is due to one's own recklessness, and that if they were poor, they'd be somehow better at being poor than the actual poor. They wouldn't waste money on mobile phones, or big tellies

That's exactly what I mean. The comments on the history pages are all about how they knew real poverty (which I'm not doubting at all - Newcastle in the 30s would have been bloody grim for a lot of people), but the fact that they didn't have TVs because they weren't invented, or that charity shops then (if they existed) didn't sell shoes as those who had them passed them down to seven other kids just passes them by. It's about only acknowledging something if you have experienced it in exactly the same way.

They can't not know about foodbanks, but I think they feel that people wouldn't need them if women stayed at home, families stayed together in the same streets, and you walked to the phone box on the corner if you needed to speak to someone urgently. A lot of people aren't interested in looking at how to improve things in the present, they prefer to assume that Bad Things happen if things change, and blame those who live differently from them. All the 'we had nothing, but we were happy' bollocks is similarly self-selecting conservatism. Everyone couldn't have been happy all the time, and if they were, it wasn't because of, but despite the fact that they had nothing. It's simplistic, but it validates their lives, and that is an understandable desire, really.

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[Morganna]

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[Montana]

As the wife of someone with a disability that relies on the state (and yes I realise we take holidays, but we budget for those every month - not that I should justify this, we're entitled to not just live with basics), I'd be interested to hear from a Conservative supporter on how they feel about Learning, Disability and Autism funding dropping down to £0 by 2023. What happens then? What happens when we can't afford private healthcare? (Which J probably wouldn't get anyway due to existing conditions). What happens if I get ill and I have to take time off and pay for healthcare and J hasn't got a carer and I earn too much (hahahahahahaha) to get additional support? What happens if J has an assessment and is told that he may improve, but he won't? Nerve damage doesn't repair itself, he can barely get out of bed some days, let alone work. What happens if our universal credit gets taken away?

I suspect that the majority of voters in this country (both Tory and others) have no knowledge of the specifics of most policy whatsover. One of the most depressing aspects of this election has been the resistance to any but the most simplistic of messages. (i.e. Get Brexi Done).

[Morganna]

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[Morganna]

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[Montana]

Genuine question: if Labour had stood on a clear Leave ticket would this have made a difference to the outcome (or would distrust of Corbyn have overridden this?) And, with the benefit of hindsight, would this have been the correct thing to do to avoid a Tory victory? Because it seems to be that this is what it came down to.

[Morganna]

I don't know whether enough people would have voted for Labour in order to get Leave. It may have saved constituencies like Blyth Valley, but I'm not sure that it would have been enough, as a lot of people would have struggled to vote for them if it was a definite Leave vote. I would have struggled, and I would never vote Tory or Lib Dem or not vote, so goodness knows what I would have done. Green, probably, which would have helped nothing.

[smalex]

as someone who did put their head over the parapet to explain why I voted that way in 2010, I felt the responses I got were very measured. If anyone thought I was a idiot/selfish they certainly were good enough to keep it to themselves . I'm quite sure no one thought I'd done the right thing, I didn't change anyone's minds (although I didn't post trying to), but I think there was a spirit of understanding about it. From my very honest opinion.

Yes, but you were posting as someone who regretted her actions rather than someone standing by them. I feel that it would be a very thankless task for someone who stood by their vote (whether that's Leave in 2016 or Tory now) to post on here as an isolated voice and even just argue the points against so many, let alone withstand the level of reproach.

I voted Remain and anti Tory and feel both those views very strongly. However, I in no way feel that the majority of people who voted opposite are stupid or immoral, and I do find the vehemence uncomfortable sometimes (while at the same time suspecting that I may have contributed to it).

Yes, that's a fair point.
Honestly, I don't think my mind could be changed by anyone's justification of why they voted Conservative. I guess I'm open to hearing about it in the sense I think it's useful as a way of better framing arguments next time there is an election, but I can't honestly say I'd sit and say I 'understood' why someone has voted for things I think are incredibly damaging. I don't know what the answer is, yes, people are going to disagree with the opinions people give (and when you're in a group of people with a fairly homogenous (when it comes to this subject), the weight of feeling is going to seem quite overwhelming), but it's not much of a discussion otherwise. Should we all say we respect an opinion or understand an opinion if we don't (and if we think the opinion is very harmful in the most literal ways)?
I think anyone who turned up and vehemently defend Corbyn/ism would probably feel quite the same weight of disagreement.

[smalex]

Genuine question: if Labour had stood on a clear Leave ticket would this have made a difference to the outcome (or would distrust of Corbyn have overridden this?) And, with the benefit of hindsight, would this have been the correct thing to do to avoid a Tory victory? Because it seems to be that this is what it came down to.

I think Ian Dunt shared a twitter post about how many constituencies would've been lost by a clear Leave agenda. It basically more or less weighed up the same.
I think if they'd clearly said 'leave but single market access' that *might* have helped... but probably the national discourse has gone passed this anyway... which comes back to... Corbyn made his bed 4 years ago when he said nothing rather than trying to shape the national opinion.

[Morganna]

I don't think many of us would change our minds enough to vote the other way, but neither do I think that that is a good thing for people who feel differently to feel that they can't say what they think and why. I doubt anyone would be posting in the hope of changing anyone's mind - not from one extreme to another, anyway. There is potential for a lot of shifts in thinking across the centre ground, and that is a good thing too.

[smalex]

I do agree. I think my point was more- it's unlikely anyone is going to have their mind changed substantially, and if you post contrasting opinions to 95% of people on a highly emotive subject, you're probably going to get quite a large amount of disagreement thrown back at you. The conversation would be artificial otherwise.

[Lily]

I don't think anyone is looking to change anyone's minds; just to be heard without being dismissed as racist, selfish, immoral, etc. If you hear someone out and then explain why you disagree, you're going to have more of an impact on them than if you call all voters of one party disgusting.

Goat, the Tories of The Past explain why my mum voted for them - you can't judge the politics of 20/30 years ago now. I have felt uncomfortable about people (not on here I don't think) saying that miners would have turned in their graves to see people in their constituencies not voting Labour. Policies and politicians change.

Montana, Liv and Goat have spoken my brains. Such as they are.

[nineseven]

Someone reported an incident of antisemitism on Twitter last night (abuse shouted on a London bus) and several replies said they the blokes doing it must have been Labour supporters. It's all upside down.

[Mountain Goat]

I saw that Nine. I don't even know what to say.

Thing is with all the stuff about "stupidity" (inverted commas because a lot of what looks like stupidity is naivety and inability to distinguish between credible sources and bullshit), immorality and racism, is that there genuinely is a serious problem with these things. Of course we shouldn't be calling people names but we also need to talk about these things without the whole discussion getting shut down because it's mentioned. There is a huge issue with people being very badly misled on policies, with media bias that isn't understood by its readership, with actual outright lying, with people lacking basic understanding of civics/economics and we absolutely need to tackle and address it. Same with racism. Same with calling out serious base immorality where it happens.

[smalex]

It's more important than ever to call out racism.

[Topcat]

I think somebody here said that North Somerset was an obvious Conservative hold because of the wealthy middle englanders etc. I mean, this has been proven to be the case but it's another thing that I just can't fathom out.

The last colliery closed properly locally less than my lifetime ago and it seems as though all of those voters must have gone with it. What on earth happened to them all?

[Lily]

It is but at the same time it's become an insult you can throw at anyone without really having justification for it. Which in turn diminishes its power, so people won't see why they may not believe they are racist, and may genuinely not be, but they are voting for a party or person or subscribing to a policy which is.

Now it sounds like I'm making excuses for racism. I'm not, but I think a lot of this

There is a huge issue with people being very badly misled on policies, with media bias that isn't understood by its readership, with actual outright lying, with people lacking basic understanding of civics/economics

is being blanketed as racism/stupidity. If you say things like that to people, then they won't listen.