Ho ho ho! Merry Election 2019?

[Morganna]

I agree that we need to carry on discussing. I'm not saying that you are saying this, obviously, but there is a difference between saying 'this was a lie', and 'you didn't understand what you were voting for', though.

[smalex]

It is but at the same time it's become an insult you can throw at anyone without really having justification for it. Which in turn diminishes its power, so people won't see why they may not believe they are racist, and may genuinely not be, but they are voting for a party or person or subscribing to a policy which is.

Now it sounds like I'm making excuses for racism. I'm not, but I think a lot of this

There is a huge issue with people being very badly misled on policies, with media bias that isn't understood by its readership, with actual outright lying, with people lacking basic understanding of civics/economics

is being blanketed as racism/stupidity. If you say things like that to people, then they won't listen.

But equally people increasingly seem to believe their opinions should be 'respected' purely because they are their opinions. Irrespective of what those opinions hold.

I know you're not defending racism. Nor am I suggesting that anyone here would be racist in justifying their vote. For a start I think anyone here who voted labour has had to do it knowing that the antisemitism is a big, big problem and that their own vote has tacitly supported it.

[Morganna]

Also, I said (on FB, or here, I can't remember) that miners would be turning in their graves after the BV result. They probably are, given that they found an incredibly difficult and relentless battle to stop the tories from killing their communities and replace a traditional way of life (which was absolutely not without its faults) with a low wage/low security alternative, which is what has happened, and which has now been voted for by the people they (the miners) were fighting to protect.

I did reconsider, however, and accept that the area has changed. The people living in the new estates had nothing to do with what came before, and there is no real reason why they should feel a sense of loyalty to any of it.

[Mountain Goat]

God only knows Mog, but in my limited experience it is quite common for people to try to put as much distance as possible between them and their working class history, and side with the Rees Moggs because that's who they want to be now.

It's all making my head hurt.

[Mountain Goat]

I agree that we need to carry on discussing. I'm not saying that you are saying this, obviously, but there is a difference between saying 'this was a lie', and 'you didn't understand what you were voting for', though.

Yes, I'm absolutely not saying that these are the same, but they are both problems. There are problems (the most serious) with outright lying by politicians on a scale we haven't witnessed before, and there are also problems with people lacking understanding (which was inevitable as something as complex as Brexit should never have been put to a referendum, and certainly not with the lack of clarity that there was at the time). We need to urgently address the issue of outright deceit from the government, and long term we need to address the problems with general understanding of civics, politics and of understanding bias in different sources. They are both issues (very different ones) and both need to be acknowledged.

[Lily]

But equally people increasingly seem to believe their opinions should be 'respected' purely because they are their opinions. Irrespective of what those opinions hold.

I do wonder if that is because both 'sides' are becoming more intransigent, so throwing insults - racist, leftie, Nazi, socialist, anti-Semite, stupid which in turn makes you (generic) cling more firmly to your belief.

I could be giving credit where credit is certainly not due, though.

[Lily]

Also, I said (on FB, or here, I can't remember) that miners would be turning in their graves after the BV result. They probably are, given that they found an incredibly difficult and relentless battle to stop the tories from killing their communities and replace a traditional way of life (which was absolutely not without its faults) with a low wage/low security alternative, which is what has happened, and which has now been voted for by the people they (the miners) were fighting to protect.

I did reconsider, however, and accept that the area has changed. The people living in the new estates had nothing to do with what came before, and there is no real reason why they should feel a sense of loyalty to any of it.

That makes sense. Thanks for explaining it.

[Green]

What do you class "calling names"? I don't see expressing an opinion that Tory voters tend to be ill informed and often primarily motivated by self interest as name calling.

A good touchstone is often whether you would be annoyed if those terms were applied to you.

I take your point Liv, although I still wouldn't see them as name calling. But yes I can see likely to get ppl backs up and risks entrenching attitudes rather than changing them.

[Rebel Pebble]

List A
The Rule of Law (page 48 of the Tory manifesto)
The Working Time Directive (Holiday Entitlement, Maternity Leave Entitlement)
Ability/right of the press to hold the Government to account (Threats to Channel 4)
Food standards way above those of the US

List B
Racism/homophobia/sexism/xenophobia/snobbery (tank topped bumboys, picanninies, watermelon smiles, letterboxes, girly swot, EU citizens "treating this place like home", how to spell Pinocchio, Grenfell victims too thick to survive)

Illegally proroguing parliament (as ruled by the Supreme Court)

Conspiracy to commit violence (Johnson/Darius Guppy journalist conversation)

Russian oligarch funding (of the Tory party)
Russian electoral interference (Russia Report)

Making shit up/outright lying (nurse numbers, hospitals to be built, Brexit will be done at the end of Jan)

No Deal end of 2020

I'd love to hear a good argument from anyone who thinks that we don't need List A and should accept List B. Neither of them are remotely exhaustive - I've missed out loads.

Until then, don't tone police me. Sorry, but right now this feels a lot like women being told that if they could just be less angry about sexism, people would listen. This is a truly horrific and frightening outcome for the future of this country and everyone in it, but especially the most vulnerable. We now have a far right government, influenced/possibly funded by weapons grade neo-fascist shits like Putin, Banks and Bannon, intent on dismantling as many rights and protections as possible. And Brexit will allow them to do it.

[Lily]

Sorry, but right now this feels a lot like women being told that if they could just be less angry about sexism, people would listen.

That's not what people are saying. It's not about being "less angry". It's about not just throwing out "racist", "selfish", etc at anyone who voted differently to (generic) you.

[Tsu]

Genuine question: if Labour had stood on a clear Leave ticket would this have made a difference to the outcome (or would distrust of Corbyn have overridden this?) And, with the benefit of hindsight, would this have been the correct thing to do to avoid a Tory victory? Because it seems to be that this is what it came down to.

I would have made more of an effort to get a proxy vote sorted out, not that it mattered in my constituency.

I think it has been forgotten that there are leave voters on both sides and it feels very odd indeed to me to be lumped in with the conservative voters because I don't feel like a conservative voter and I never will.
Perhaps the Labour voters who voted Tory this time felt similarly alienated.

[Rebel Pebble]

Sorry, but right now this feels a lot like women being told that if they could just be less angry about sexism, people would listen.

That's not what people are saying. It's not about being "less angry". It's about not just throwing out "racist", "selfish", etc at anyone who voted differently to (generic) you.

And normally I would agree with that but, like when Trump was elected in the States, this was not a normal election. We're not talking a difference of opinion here. It's not about voting differently to me. It's about voting FOR appalling things that are so extreme and so blatant that they defy anything that's ever been at stake in previous elections.

[Lily]

I suppose in Lists A and B there are things which people don't care about. Namely they don't care about No Deal because they believe in Brexit. The racism, etc. they would throw straight back in Labour's face with regards to anti-semitism. I don't think they believe the Russian stuff and think it's all scare-mongering. I genuinely don't know how you get through to those people.

[Morganna]

I don't think that people are lumping you with the Tories, Tsu. You have said that you always vote(d) Labour.

I agree that it's a strange situation, as there are two chasms working simultaneously, and people can be on one side of one and another of the other. Even that doesn't make sense - on the majority side of one and the minority side of the other (on here) is better. I think in general there is also a North/South divide (which goes some way to explaining Brexit), and increasingly a young/old one too. I think that there has been a deliberate policy of turning people against one another, so that there is less of a concerted opposition to anything.

[Tsu]

My 27 year old politics graduate, Scottish resident son is also a Labour leave voter.

[Luce]

My 27 year old politics graduate, Scottish resident son is also a Labour leave voter.

I can not wrap my head around that whatsoever. How? Why? What information is he privy to that no one else is? What benefits is he expecting from leaving?

[Lily]

I'd be interested in why he voted how he did Tsu, if you don't mind telling us, as I thought the majority of young people voted Remain.

[Topcat]

This is how it goes though. Tsu responds and then that response gets pulled apart which leads to Tsu feeling put upon.

I am sure it isn't people's intentions but it does happen.

[sally maclennane]

This is how it goes though. Tsu responds and then that response gets pulled apart which leads to Tsu feeling put upon.

I am sure it isn't people's intentions but it does happen.

She hasn't given reasons for voting Leave, and I don't see any "pulling apart" going on.

[Morganna]

Yes, Mog, it was unfortunate that as soon as Tsu posted she was her son! I didn’t mean a young/old split in terms of voting, though. I meant that the groups are pitted against one another. We are told that the young would be paying for x,y and z, as though old people haven’t already paid a lifetime of tax, as an example. Or that it’s no wonder that young people can’t buy houses if they insist on drinking coffee from Starbucks and eating avocados. That they are entitled and selfish, etc.

I do think it is deliberate, as as long as we see ourselves as in opposition to other groups, solidarity is less likely.