The Mock Turtle

I've only skimmed the thread as I seem to have another cold/flu thing and feel pretty terrible, but I saw something on the news yesterday and it really confused me.

What is this about:

The BBC interviewed two young British men in Barnsley (I'm assuming they were British), a place that went from Labour to Tory and a place with high levels of deprivation.

These two were both working in zero hour low paid jobs and the interviewer asked why they voted Tory. They said (actually with a bit of prompting), that it was because of Zero Hours insecure jobs and lack of affordable housing.

Now, my understanding is that both have been adversely affected by a Tory government, and what I really wanted the interviewer to ask was why they thought that it would be better under a Tory Government, given that we have had a Tory government for 9 years? They didn't ask that though.

It might have been Bolton.

There was one place in Barnsley that went Conservative but not the rest.

And smal, she's sorted but the stress made her very ill for a while. It's absolutely fucking appalling that she has to do it. And let's not forget the Polish, French, Swedish etc etc etc friends and colleagues I have who are facing the same shit show.

indigo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:28 am There was one place in Barnsley that went Conservative but not the rest.

And smal, she's sorted but the stress made her very ill for a while. It's absolutely fucking appalling that she has to do it. And let's not forget the Polish, French, Swedish etc etc etc friends and colleagues I have who are facing the same shit show.

Must have been Barnsley then

I have quite a few clients who need to apply. Some are so disabled and lacking in documents that it's really hard for them. Their local authority is helping as much as possible, but it's a nightmare for many (as these things always are if you are not computer literature with up to date ID and the strength to actually deal with things)

indigo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:28 am And smal, she's sorted but the stress made her very ill for a while. It's absolutely fucking appalling that she has to do it. And let's not forget the Polish, French, Swedish etc etc etc friends and colleagues I have who are facing the same shit show.

It's horrendous, shameful and utterly wrong how they are being treated and made to feel by this. Not just the process but the xenophobia unleashed by the referendum and brought right back up by Johnson barely the day before the election.

Edith Bacon wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:58 am It’s really not a jolly subject, Lily. And, IMO, ought not to be made light of.

Oh honestly. It was one bloody post - which actually did make a good point. Nobody who is reasonable, and has a calm viewpoint, is going to get any airtime - it is always going to be the strident ones, the ones who speak out on either side. Go scold everyone who has used a or a in the entire bloody thread.

Rebel Pebble wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:37 am

indigo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:28 am And smal, she's sorted but the stress made her very ill for a while. It's absolutely fucking appalling that she has to do it. And let's not forget the Polish, French, Swedish etc etc etc friends and colleagues I have who are facing the same shit show.

It's horrendous, shameful and utterly wrong how they are being treated and made to feel by this. Not just the process but the xenophobia unleashed by the referendum and brought right back up by Johnson barely the day before the election.

And normalised. It is quite acceptable now to say things against immigrants, foreigners, etc,. etc. In every day parlance, in a way that I don't think people would dare be outspoken about against people due to their skin colour.

But then you had immigrants (apparently) who voted for Brexit. So ... it makes you feel you're missing something. This was an interesting read.

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/04/08/the- ... or-brexit/

I think that article was from Burnley, Marth. It's so hard to comprehend, what makes people think the Tories, and particularly Johnson will improve life for the working class?

Rebel Pebble wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:37 am
It's horrendous, shameful and utterly wrong how they are being treated and made to feel by this. Not just the process but the xenophobia unleashed by the referendum and brought right back up by Johnson barely the day before the election.

And this is why I really can't forgive anyone who voted for Leave.

While there are many who voted Leave who aren't racist, they should surely be able to see what a horrendous impact it has had on our already polarised society. But would that alone change their vote, if they genuinely thought it was the right thing for the country? (I don't expect anyone to answer that BTW)

I just don't think people thought about that. TBF, none of us knew enough about the whole thing to be informed enough to make a decision. That's a scandal too.

sally maclennane wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:12 am I think that article was from Burnley, Marth. It's so hard to comprehend, what makes people think the Tories, and particularly Johnson will improve life for the working class?

All the Bs

Yes, especially when the last 9 years have demonstrably made it worse for the working classes, especially the rise of the GIG and Zero hours economies.

I came away from that article thinking they must just want immigrants out/us out of the EU, perceiving immigration to have driven down job standards etc. I couldn't think of anything else.

indigo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:31 am I just don't think people thought about that. TBF, none of us knew enough about the whole thing to be informed enough to make a decision. That's a scandal too.

That is what is always comes down to. No matter how much people protest likewise. And now I have gone from hope to despair once more.

I have said it before but the Tories struck it so lucky that higher immigration coincided with austerity. I truly believe austerity has been an absolute political choice, (and the UN rapporteur agrees with me ) and it's been so convenient to have some Polish folk to blame it all on, helped along by shitty media like the Mail. The punitive nature of the current benefit system is absolutely horrendous, and that will only get worse now they have an overall majority.

I've thought about this such a lot in the last few days, and keep coming round to- haven't we all got a line in the sand, the point when we say- I don't care about trying to understand anymore, I don't care how 'decent' you might be in other aspects of your life (fostering injured hedgehogs, campaigning for the local hospital, taking milk round to your elderly neighbour, whatever), I don't care what justification you use- your political views are so abhorrent to me that I can't engage with you? Where it becomes the overriding way in which we judge that person's character?

I'm not there yet with most people, however they voted, I don't think, but I don't really blame people if they are. I've certainly seen a few people on FB say things to that end. I don't think we're always under an obligation to try and be conciliatory. We're not in the first flush of this, we've been round the houses listening to the arguments, to and fro. We've all heard all of them before. The last 3.5yrs since the referendum, and 9 since the Tories came into power have been so painful, so lacking in humour, so damaging, and now the brakes are off. The next five are going to make the last five look like a walk in the park. And some people signed us all up for it.

I absolutely do know there are more Leave voters like that, Montana. I’m unsure where I’ve suggested there aren’t. I was just trying to be grateful to Tsu for taking the time to bug her son to give us some articulate reasons.

Lily, you’re clearly in one of those moods so I’ve no wish to argue with you but your depiction of painfully polite as a bad thing is yours alone - not mine. I never even intimated it was a bad thing, quite the opposite. If you’d read anything I’ve said then I think you’d see that. I was acknowledging the effort that many of us were making to be courteous. FFS.

Yes, Smal - I tried to make that point last time that there will be always eventually be a line in the sand where we no longer need to try and understand - like if someone was being a racist etc etc. But then I just got accused of calling Tsu a racist so I gave up trying to articulate myself. Maybe I need to use more emojis.

But you're not in "one of those moods"? I'm not getting into a you said she said debate, as it is getting a bit ridiculous. You are right of course. Being polite isn't a bad thing at all.

smalex wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:39 am I've thought about this such a lot in the last few days, and keep coming round to- haven't we all got a line in the sand, the point when we say- I don't care about trying to understand anymore, I don't care how 'decent' you might be in other aspects of your life (fostering injured hedgehogs, campaigning for the local hospital, taking milk round to your elderly neighbour, whatever), I don't care what justification you use- your political views are so abhorrent to me that I can't engage with you? Where it becomes the overriding way in which we judge that person's character?

I think this really depends on the individual. How well you know that person. I suppose it would depend if they engaged with me or not and I was able to discuss things with them and why they felt xyz. I don't know if that makes any sense... I don't know if I have one. Racism, homophobia, cruelty would be up there. What's yours? (Generic question to anyone)

I suppose that Leave voters thought (what I assume to be the majority of them, who understand the reality that the UK could control EU immigration more than it has chosen to do, and that leaving the EU won't make any difference to non-European immigration), is that there is no logical or self-interested reason for the UK to want settled EU citizens to leave the UK. I actually think it'll be worse for retired UK expats who haven't contributed anything to the Spanish economy, don't have local NI numbers etc. and will need to rely on Spanish healthcare.

sally maclennane wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:39 am I have said it before but the Tories struck it so lucky that higher immigration coincided with austerity. I truly believe austerity has been an absolute political choice, (and the UN rapporteur agrees with me ) and it's been so convenient to have some Polish folk to blame it all on, helped along by shitty media like the Mail. The punitive nature of the current benefit system is absolutely horrendous, and that will only get worse now they have an overall majority.

Yes, whilst they failed every one of their own targets to limit immigration and sort out border control etc.
You really cannot make it up.

The Tory govt. have been forced to make some concessions to the punitive benefit system around sanctions and so on, but it's ONLY because the Labour Party and campaigning charities kept fighting and shouting and taking the Tories to court over different inhumane measures.

We have to drag them to court to make changes! That is appalling in itself.

I too totally agree Austerity was/is political. There was no need.