Labour Leadership : Reboot 2019

[lazzbo]

There's no shame in love for the Starmer, I say. He's a thoroughly decent chap!

[Ella77]

I’ve dithered over asking this as I’m sure I’m wrong, and I’m no fan of RLB, but was that really antisemitism? I’m not saying it definitely wasn’t (and I do think it’s time the Labour Party finally came out against it), but I read it through several times. What did I miss? (This is a genuine question, I’m honestly not trying to provoke.)

[lorri_b]

I am by no means an expert, this is just my understanding.

The article shared suggested Israeli forces are teaching the neck restraining technique to US police. But there is no evidence of this. The suggestion Israel can be linked in any way to Floyd's death is why it is antisemitic.

I think I read Keir said whilst he didn't feel RLB is anti semitic, sharing the content was spreading anti-Israel propaganda.

[sally maclennane]

I thought the same Ella, but Lorri_b has explained it well. Plus I wonder if RLB was advised to withdraw/apologise and refused so was sacked?

[Ruby]

Context, in this case, really is everything The problem isn't criticising Israel's training of American police. The problem is saying that they taught the police to kneel on black people's necks. Firstly, it's not true. I would say that 10 years ago, saying it wouldn't have been a problem. But in the current climate - particularly in the Labour Party where those defending Jewish people have been characterised as being anti-black - it's basically a dogwhistle. "You criticise Corbyn for just liking a mural but what about Twitter user @labourdick183957264 ? He has told Dianne Abbott to kill herself! Where's the outrage about how black people are being treated?" etc.

And it really should be possible for any Labour supporter to get through an interview without once mentioning the Israeli state. Yes, there is a legitimate way to criticise the Israeli government and NOT be antisemitic, but throwing it into every conversation probably isn't going to demonstrate a commitment to fighting antisemitism. It's like Ken Livingstone can't get through a conversation without mentioning Hitler. However, Maxine Peake is an actress and may not have grasped the wider issue. But RLB should absolutely have understood why it was a problem - and if she didn't then that's a problem. If RLB had just taken down the tweet and apologised, then I think it would have been fine but Keir Starmer has said he has 'zero tolerance' so he can't really just let her get away with it.

[Loralei]

She was. She was asked/offered to post a clarification but then they asked her to delete and she refused. She said she'd hoped to be able to discuss it with KS but he'd made his decision. I have some sympathy for her motives, if that's the truth, but the time to debate semantics is absolutely not now.

[Ruby]

Apparently there was a four hour stand off and she was asked to delete it, but didn't.

[Loralei]

I cross posted with Ruby, incidentally. My post now looks as if I'm disagreeing.

RLB said she wasn't agreeing with everything in the article and didn't mean the mention of Isreal, which sounds disingenuous given how inflammatory it was likely to be. The Isreal reference was really incongruous, too, as if MP manages to crowbar it into every topic of conversation, so it's hard to believe it didn't stand out to RLB.

[Ruby]

It is incongruous. But also the whole article is a bit shit - basically blaming voters for not seeing the genius of Corbyn. I mean, I get it but if you want people to vote for you maybe do t say that?

Imagine the atmosphere in the Angela Rayner/RLB flat today.

I can really imagine Angela Rayner saying, "FFS, Becky, just delete it!"

One of the problems is that a lot of the people who did well under Corbyn are only used to preaching to the choir. There has been no party discipline.

[ParisGal]

It certainly was really odd and irrelevant

[Loralei]

Maxine Peake doesn't need anyone to vote for her and I have no idea what the point of that article was. Aside from coming across as a typical Corbynite, blaming everyone else for his failings, it just seemed to be a massive whinge with no point to it. The Isreal reference was a bit shocking, even though I've seen worse on LP groups.

[sally maclennane]

Its a pity as I generally like Maxine Peake, she's very strong on acting being accessible to all but she comes across there as a bit of an arse.

[Derek Nimmo]

Ella, please don't apologise for asking - I struggled to articulate initially why it made me so uncomfortable but Ruby has it, as does this rather spot on quote from the New Statesman -

Those who find this allegation anti-Semitic do not dispute that international police forces share training in a manner of deep concern to international human rights watchdogs. What they do object to is the singling out of Israel in this allegation, when there is nothing to suggest that Israel played any greater part in Floyd’s death than the many other countries that share training with the US, and which also use aggressive restraining techniques. Why is the tragic killing of a black man at the hands of the police, in a country with a long history of racial discrimination and excessive force in policing, now being blamed on the world’s only Jewish-majority state, they ask?

[Pippedydeadeye]

Also, I think he wanted any excuse to be rid of her really. This was very convenient.

[lazzbo]

Can't blame him for that.

[Ella77]

Thanks, all. That makes sense, and I completely agree about that compulsion to bring up Israel all the time.

[Montana]

Ella, please don't apologise for asking - I struggled to articulate initially why it made me so uncomfortable but Ruby has it, as does this rather spot on quote from the New Statesman -

Those who find this allegation anti-Semitic do not dispute that international police forces share training in a manner of deep concern to international human rights watchdogs. What they do object to is the singling out of Israel in this allegation, when there is nothing to suggest that Israel played any greater part in Floyd’s death than the many other countries that share training with the US, and which also use aggressive restraining techniques. Why is the tragic killing of a black man at the hands of the police, in a country with a long history of racial discrimination and excessive force in policing, now being blamed on the world’s only Jewish-majority state, they ask?

Yes, that's also pretty much how Ed Milliband explained it on Andrew Marr this morning.

I really struggle with where does criticism of Israel end and anti Semitic begin because it can often be quite subtle and as, I think, Ruby said ten years ago or so you wouldn't really have had to think about it.

[Bat Macdui]

Sara Gibbs on Twitter had a thread about it and I think what stuck out for me as well is where she pointed out that RLB has had 4 years to learn what should and should not be said and she hasn't. That's important.

Her whole thread's here.

[Marth]

Indeed. RLB was also on the NEC so if anyone should have known the definitions of AS, it was her.

[Livilla]

There was also a good thread on twitter showing pictures of police forces literally all around the world (South Korea, Venezuela, Australia etc etc) using kneeling on the neck as a means of subduing people, so it is clearly a very widespread policing tactic. So, absolutely no need to, and no reason to, blame it on training from Israel.