The Mock Turtle

Topcat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:04 pm I wouldn't be joining them if they paid me in their current state.

Isn’t the point that you join and hope to influence them moving out of this state?

I have joined and would love Jess Philips to be the next leader.

I think it's fair enough to at least expect a party to stamp out the racism within it before they start to expect anything in return from me.

I’d totally love Jess Phillips as leader. And Keir Starmer, but I think the time of the white man is past at the moment for Labour.

Topcat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:14 pm I think it's fair enough to at least expect a party to stamp out the racism within it before they start to expect anything in return from me.

This won't happen without fundamental change in the party. That is why people will be joining and voting. That's the whole point (that, and fundamental change in other ways also)

Not for me. I think it's about time they owned this one and fixed it.

The election is done and those that held their nose whilst voting for them last time around don't have to do so anymore.

Topcat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:38 pm Not for me. I think it's about time they owned this one and fixed it.

The election is done and those that held their nose whilst voting for them last time around don't have to do so anymore.

Yes of course, with another leader we hopefully won't have to do that. Change will only come from within.

I didn't think you were a labour supporter though anyway (not being funny)

Livilla wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:59 pm I really like Jess Phillips. This, of course, means she has no chance of being elected :doingbadlyinelectionslately: :hollowlaughter:

Same.

I feel a bit patronised by the stuff on Twitter I've read about the next leader needing to be a "Northern Woman". But at the same time you need someone who will get shit done - someone is going to need to expel all those antisemites in the face of a LOT of noise from the crank-left. I'm not sure Lisa Nandy has the bollocks and I find it very difficult to like RLB. I don't mind Angela Rayner - I don't think she's actually a Corbynite at heart - but I do worry about the wider appeal of both her and Jess Phillips. The Brocialists hate Jess Phillips - apparently she's racist because she once told Dianne Abbott to fuck off and also a TERF and ... etc. etc.

I like Kier Starmer but I think he might be a bit damaged by being very pro-Eu.

Really, Yvette Cooper is my one true love but I don't think she'd stand a chance with the current membership. I think whoever gets to be leader now, won't necessarily be the leader in place at the next election.

I like Yvette Cooper very much, but she does seem a bit 'of a different era' now.

I don't support anybody, and it's for these types of reasons that I don't. That said, I voted for them last time around with my hand firmly clamped over my nose because the other viable options were worse.

Change from within is mostly bollocks though I'm afraid. Unless that party is actually rotten to the core (which I don't believe it is) those who need to work to stamp this sort of shit out (and remove any hint of it from the Conservative attack dogs grasp at the next election) at the top of the party need to be making their voices heard sooner rather than later and put an end to it.

I know this is a debate that I won't win on here, nor would I expect to, but if a party in opposition can't get something as fundamentally basic as this right, then for the time being at least, they can do one.

I think you're completely wrong, here, Alan. Being in it is literally the only way to attempt an outcome that you'd prefer. Its like people who don't vote in elections complaining that they don't like the result.

JP being a terf was made me absolutely love her. Again, therefore, she's got no chance.

Ruby wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:46 pm I think whoever gets to be leader now, won't necessarily be the leader in place at the next election.

I think this, I think it might need one to purge then one to rebuild. BUT. Times are weird and things may move very fast in 5 years so I might be wrong. I am also in the Jess Philips camp but if we're looking at potential appeal to a very broad church, clean and ambitious, I would point out Dan Jarvis got re-elected.

Topcat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:52 pm

Change from within is mostly bollocks though I'm afraid. Unless that party is actually rotten to the core (which I don't believe it is) those who need to work to stamp this sort of shit out (and remove any hint of it from the Conservative attack dogs grasp at the next election) at the top of the party need to be making their voices heard sooner rather than later and put an end to it.

Change from within is not bollocks. far from it. Change will only happen from within, using the actual membership (not just the shouty tossers on FB who probably are not even members) The members can force those voices at the top to speak out via our CLPS and conference. We are not just voting fodder.

I bloody love Jess Phillips but I don't feel I can join Labour in all conscience, as I have voted SNP for the last 10 years or so. I like Angela Rayner too, she seems good. I dislike Rebecca Long Bailey for some reason, not just because she's a Corbynite.

It went well last time out, when they would rather see people leave in droves than tackle the situation, and they knew it was an issue long before the election.


I guess they also know that most of them that left would sign back up again within a few months.

The hardcore Momentum people are gunning for more of the same, just not headed by Corbyn. I’m considering joining to try to influence them (by one vote ) further towards the centre left.

Pippedydeadeye wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:29 pm I’d totally love Jess Phillips as leader. And Keir Starmer, but I think the time of the white man is past at the moment for Labour.

I suspect you're right in terms of being elected Labour leader. But I do think that Labour prime ministers tend to get elected if they look like Conservatives. I would probably vote Keir on that basis, but would his unambiguous Remainism alienate the people he is trying to win back?

Brings us back to Dan Jarvis then.

Luce wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:58 pm I think you're completely wrong, here, Alan. Being in it is literally the only way to attempt an outcome that you'd prefer. Its like people who don't vote in elections complaining that they don't like the result.

I wholeheartedly agree with all of this. I have maintained my membership throughout, in the hope of getting the chance to vote Corbyn out, so electing a decent successor will have to do.

I’ve also rejoined in the hope of getting them to move more central left. I like Kier Starmer and Jess Phillips best at the moment but need to do a bit more reading on the others. I will be leaving the party again immediately after the Leadership election if one of the Momentum lot (Rebecca Long Bailey, Emily Thornberry etc) gets in.

Dan Jarvis is an interesting idea. Is he high profile enough though?

I would love Yvette Cooper too but agree with smal that she seems part of a bygone era. I can't believe I was ambvilent about her at the time of the leadership election that resulted in Corbyn.