The Mock Turtle

I'm very very glad Handbag is no longer available for people to read. I'm also grateful that people still talk to me after some of the stuff I put on there.

People change and grow. If he was still putting out stuff like that I'd see it very differently.

Livilla wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:45 am But do you think he should lose his career because of them, Sal?

As far as I understand it, he's been suspended from international cricket not county - is that right? And even that is a suspension, not a lifetime ban (which i can't see happening).

I agree with Sal about how we can be guilty of quickly dismissing stuff, and also just because I may or may not be OK with what he wrote about women does not give me the right to give him a pass (or otherwise) about what he wrote about other races.

Livilla wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:45 am But do you think he should lose his career because of them, Sal?

I have no problem with that awful footballer Ched Evans losing his, for example, for engaging in what was considered serious criminal behaviour (at least for a while ), but I don’t think this crosses that line.

No, I don't, and I don't think I said that anywhere.

There's a world of difference between thinking that someone should be accountable for their actions, and wanting them to lose everything. I'd prefer the former but equally I think in the UK, such behaviour is often dismissed especially when its a white middle class male who does it. I'd be interested to see the PMs reaction if it had been Raheem Sterling who'd tweeted stuff like that.

sally maclennane wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:35 am

Livilla wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:45 am But do you think he should lose his career because of them, Sal?

I have no problem with that awful footballer Ched Evans losing his, for example, for engaging in what was considered serious criminal behaviour (at least for a while ), but I don’t think this crosses that line.

No, I don't, and I don't think I said that anywhere.

There's a world of difference between thinking that someone should be accountable for their actions, and wanting them to lose everything. I'd prefer the former but equally I think in the UK, such behaviour is often dismissed especially when its a white middle class male who does it. I'd be interested to see the PMs reaction if it had been Raheem Sterling who'd tweeted stuff like that.

Absolutely. Too often people (almost exclusively white men) are let off the hook because the consequences of their actions would have a significant impact on their future, ignoring the ongoing impact their actions have on others.

I started off broadly sympathetic towards Robinson, especially as I have an ongoing battle with J about him posting inappropriate things to his WA timeline. He would class himself as anti-racist but can't seem to recognise when a YT 'comedy' video veers from questionable (mocking the English for their terrible food and the French for their rudeness) to unacceptable (branding certain countries terrorist). He's a 12yo idiot and a work in progress. But having seen Robinson's tweets, I have far less sympathy for him. No one (white) should need to be told in 2012 not to use the n-word, or make comments about the stereotyped appearance of Asian people. I'm not arguing for a permanent ban, I think suspension and public embarrassment is a reasonable first step, but I expect his career will always be dogged by this and I believe that's proportionate.

He used the N word? I didn't see that one! That does make me feel differently, silly at it sounds.

He even hashtagged the emoji one as racist!

Kleio wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:33 am He even hashtagged the emoji one as racist!

Yeahhhhh. Having gone and found them now- this in particular struck me as ... eeeshh.

Lily wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:27 am

Tsu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:22 am If the ECB had trawled all their players tweets and given the problematic authors a heads up, what does that say about the ECB?

If they do this, that's quite wise.

So it's not what they've said, it's that they've said it?

I don't know what the ECB have said - I haven't followed the story in great depth, apart from obviously looking at the tweets.

What I meant is, are the ECB annoyed that they have a cricketer who has tweeted these things or that he's been caught tweeting these things?
If the tweets are bad enough to suspend him why didn't they do due diligence before signing him up to play for England?

I do believe the response and punishment should fit the misconduct. I’ve actually recommended action against senior white men in a few instances. That’s been where adult men have made choices to engage in active (not “stale”) workplace behaviour that they had every reason to believe was inappropriate, and relied on their position and status to insulate them from any consequences. I don’t think that really reflects the circumstances of an 18 year old sending tweets 10 years ago, long before he was in his current role.

Twitter is a easy platform for people’s views, ranging from polite and interested to repugnant and abusive. There’s a lot on there that I would never say, and a lot that I deem offensive. I do however have problems with people having their current career put in jeopardy because of something they said a long time ago where the prevailing view is that it’s unacceptable to simply express such views. This is an example of a white teenager, but actually I’m more concerned about the position of women, generally. If you condone harsh consequences where it’s something that you personally dislike, aren’t you supporting similar action in cases where you may not have a problem with what was tweeted? I mean, if something’s offensive to someone, it’s offensive enough to merit action, right?

I'm quite happy with saying, blanket fashion, that racism and sexism should always be brought to light and people held accountable - I'm not suggesting hounding to death or being deemed unemployable forevermore, but it should be brought to light and accounted for.

Of course there will be instances where someone is pilloried and I don't think they deserve it (see J.K Rowling for example) but that doesn't stop me thinking that racism and sexism are wrong, and that people should be called out on them.

I was listening to a podcast about cancel culture the other day, and they made the point several times that there is often no middle ground between these things going un-challenged and total, complete, public shaming/loss of current and future career etc.

By his own admission, seemingly, these were racist posts, and I think there'd be a reasonably high level of agreement that they're sexist, so I don't think is so much about whether they're offensive, but whether that has become a complete irrelevance because of his age when they were posted and the time since they were posted.

I just can't see how the fact that he said this 8 years ago at the age of 19, means that what the content of what he said is irrelevant. It needs acknowledgement, apology and education - which is what has happened / I hope is going to happen.

No, I agree, and said that I didn't think they should be swept under the carpet in my first post, and feel that even more so now I've actually seen what was said- but I do think these discussions tend to get mired in a bit of what is /isn't offensive and we can all think of loads of grey area examples of that- but actually in this case, when the guy himself has #racist his post, I think we can all agree its definitively offensive.

Derek Nimmo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:20 pm I just can't see how the fact that he said this 8 years ago at the age of 19, means that what the content of what he said is irrelevant. It needs acknowledgement, apology and education - which is what has happened / I hope is going to happen.

That’s the point though. He’s already done that - he has however still been suspended and is now subject to an ECB investigation.

Derek Nimmo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:08 pm I'm not suggesting hounding to death or being deemed unemployable forevermore, but it should be brought to light and accounted for.

How do you stop that though, when, as Smal pointed out cancel culture means once stained, forever pitch?

So we should never discuss or hold people accountable for past racist, sexist etc behaviour and speech? I'm not responsible for the media / twitterati (oh that I was ;) ) so can't control their behaviour, but I - personally - think never examining or challenging this stuff is a mistake, as is pillorying someone for the rest of their life if they make a sincere apology and show action for change.

Regarding the ECB's actions, I'm no cricket expert (understatement) but this is what I read in the Guardian today, and it seems totally reasonable to me, and falls under the idea of 'acknowledgement' -

the ECB has essentially given itself time to work through its own regulations – plus the player’s then status as an out-of-season academy player at Kent – in order to establish whether the matter falls under the auspices of its “at-arms-length” Cricket Discipline Commission or the governing body itself.

It was not, as Dowden would seemingly have it, the actual punishment for the tweets Robinson wrote less than a decade ago, rather what many employers would do in such instances: ask the individual to step away for a spell so all parties can discuss the matter further, establish the full picture and find out how the person back then differs from the person today.the ECB has essentially given itself time to work through its own regulations – plus the player’s then status as an out-of-season academy player at Kent – in order to establish whether the matter falls under the auspices of its “at-arms-length” Cricket Discipline Commission or the governing body itself.

It was not, as Dowden would seemingly have it, the actual punishment for the tweets Robinson wrote less than a decade ago, rather what many employers would do in such instances: ask the individual to step away for a spell so all parties can discuss the matter further, establish the full picture and find out how the person back then differs from the person today.

establish the full picture and find out how the person back then differs from the person today.

I think this is so important. Its sometimes only in this pause that people come out of the woodwork and say 'well, actually I played with him at X Club and he was still spouting this sort of thing a year ago'....or... whether it really was an opinion he held 9 yrs ago and but has since genuinely changed.

That all sounds fine on the part of the ECB, yes - only most employers would ensure that this all takes place in strict confidence. Because once you know that in the current climate holding people accountable for past racist, sexist etc behaviour and speech means trial by media and exposure to the worst of cancel culture (which they absolutely do know) then surely you also have a duty of care to the individual to support them. The ECB could just have said that they have no comment to make while their investigation is ongoing. And given his actual comment on the day they came to light (see below) he has conceded that they were racist and sexist, that he posted them, and that he regrets this. No other communications of a similar nature have come to light. I can’t quite see the justification for suspending him, which just makes this a bigger story. It protects the ECB from criticism, though I don’t think they should be prioritising themselves over him (I am mindful that a well-known young choreographer committed suicide last month after ballet companies started cancelling performances of his works - minor ones, not the big, moneymaking ones, of course - after allegations that he’d committed sexual assault, but which had not been proved in an investigation into the allegations). I also note that the other cricketer who was found to have published a racist tweet has not been named, and so far, no suspension has been announced - they were 15 at the time, so are protected.

Robinson, 27, said in a statement: “On the biggest day of my career so far, I am embarrassed by the racist and sexist tweets that I posted over eight years ago, which have today become public. I want to make it clear that I’m not racist and I’m not sexist. I deeply regret my actions, and I am ashamed of making such remarks. I was thoughtless and irresponsible, and regardless of my state of mind at the time, my actions were inexcusable. Since that period, I have matured as a person and fully regret the tweets.”