A difficult conversation

[Loralei]

I've mentioned before that my sister treats J very differently (less favourably) than either Berty, TD or her own two. If someone is going to be told off he will either bear the brunt or be lumped in if my nephews were at fault, and she seems generally irritated by him. He's never invited to stay the night, unlike Berty or TD, as he got himself really worked up the last time (about a year ago) and was texting me to come and get him and my sister had to wake up to calm him down. I didn't go and get him as it's a 90 minute round trip and I knew he was safe, but with hindsight perhaps I should have. I think part of the reason he acted that way was because he didn't feel welcome, but he's asked to go again since and my sister said no, as it "never goes well." The time before that he was three years old (he's nearly twelve now) and had a nightmare, so I feel it's a bit unfair to hold that against him She works ridiculously hard and is having a hard time at the moment, so I understand it's hard to be rational about something like lost sleep, but I feel the whole sleepover thing is a bit of a red herring and an excuse for not treating all of them the same. J definitely notices it; so far I've managed to brusque it off by pointing out that Berty is a novelty for someone with two boys and TD gets away with murder because he's the youngest, but he's not daft.

As I've mentioned on here, I've been very supportive of her family recently. She split up with my BIL at the beginning of the year and my eldest nephew has behavioural issues. She was talking about contacting social services the other week and I told her to send him here indefinitely (although three days ended up being enough.) He comes to stay regularly when things get too much for one or both of them and I've taken him on holiday with us a couple of times. It's really important to me that he feels welcome here, but I worry I might be putting him before J. The two of them haven't been getting on recently and my nephew (O) had a bit of a meltdown the other day and told my sister that, last time he stayed, J told him none of us wanted him here and that I don't love him. I was really upset but J is adamant he didn't say anything of the sort, or anything that could have been misconstrued as such. J is not always a reliable witness re his own misdeeds but he'll usually tell the truth given a day or two and assurances I won't take his head off, and he is steadfast on this even when I said we need to sit down with my sister and O to sort it out.

So, I think the four of us do need to sit down and talk about the boys' ongoing bad feeling, but I also reckon I'm going to have to talk to my sister about the way she treats J, too. She's going to look after my three for a bit tomorrow while I'm painting at Dad's, and when I felt the need to text her and tell her not to discuss the situation with O without me there (as I don't trust her to be fair to J) I realised I need to tackle it. Aside from anything else she's named as my children's guardian if anything happens to me and P and right now it would be like sending J to live with Mr Bumble.

We don't do difficult conversations in my family. We ignore things and let them fester :British: How on earth do I broach this?

Tl;dr: My sister is unkind to J and I need to call her on it. Please tell me how to do it.

[Glint]

That sounds incredibly upsetting for j, and you. I’m sure the other two will pick up on it too.

I have no real advice, maybe a neutral setting (picnic if you don’t want to do a cafe) and trying your best to remain calm and stick to the facts.

Good luck, I hope your sister can see where you are coming from and it can be resolved quickly and painlessly.

[Pippedydeadeye]

Geez thats sounds really hard. I didn’t want to read and not post. I think the thing is to be honest, but not confrontational. Maybe also give her time to reflect, so say what needs saying, and then leave it with her for a little while.

[Panda]

I agree about the non-confrontational approach (easier said than done I know!), and practice sharing some examples beforehand in a non-emotional way.

[Ruby]

Is the relationship between J and O the root of the problem, do you think?

I have had periods where my children have clashed with my friends'/families children and it's made us distance a bit. But it normally went away on its own after a while.

I have to admit, if he'd got me up in the night during a sleepover, I wouldn't want him to come again. However, if you're regularly looking after O then it isn't fair on you or J at all.

It is hard with family. Difficult conversations don't tend to go well when everyone just falls into their prescribed 'role'.

ETA: I wouldn't have a round table discussion on it. I would just say something to your sister like, "J has got the impression you don't like him. I told him that xxx but you know what he's like." I wouldn't get into a list of times when he's been treated differently or anything.

[Loralei]

Is the relationship between J and O the root of the problem, do you think?

No, it's a long standing issue. I first picked up on it when J was about 3 but have ostriched since then. I agree about the sleepover but it's more than that; the sleepover is what's made it concrete for J.

O has been a shit to J lately, and I don't blame J for reacting. There's always been a bit of a power struggle between them as the two oldest boys and O tries to boss J around, knows better than all of us about everything etc, normal growing up stuff. They (my sister's family) are all quite snobby and can't understand why we all have android phones, don't wear labels and so on. There's an ongoing attitude from O that we're all doing everything wrong and he needs to show us the One True Way, classic teenager stuff, but it's easier for me to smile, nod and ignore it than for J, who gets really wound up. Last time O was here he was horrible; ignoring what J was asking him to do/not do with the guinea pigs, being rude to me, fighting with his brother (which he rarely does when I'm around) but I tend not to tell him off if his mum is there unless I'm backing her up. O is being assessed for ADHD and I am walking a fine line between wanting to be the person he comes to when things are shit at home, but not being a pushover. I guess I cut him a lot of slack and am resentful that my sister not only doesn't do the same for J, but actually does the opposite.

I have no real advice, maybe a neutral setting (picnic if you don’t want to do a cafe) and trying your best to remain calm and stick to the facts.

It's hard to stick to the facts as it's all so subjective. I don't really want to go in with lots of examples and was planning to use lots of "I" statements (or, rather, J statements.)

ETA: I wouldn't have a round table discussion on it. I would just say something to your sister like, "J has got the impression you don't like him. I told him that xxx but you know what he's like." I wouldn't get into a list of times when he's been treated differently or anything.

I absolutely would not sit round the table and discuss my sister's treatment of J with him there! The horror! I want to sit down with the boys as one of them (I suspect O) is lying and it's harder to do that face to face. Either O is getting more manipulative and needs to know it won't work, or J has been a fucker and needs to own it.

[Ruby]

Oh right. I thought you had gone mad there for a minute.

I mean, there's being supportive of your sister and making your life miserable. ADHD might make you annoying but it doesn't make you an arsehole. I'm sure O is probably having a horrible time at the moment for various reasons but I think you should be less accomodating.

[olive]

Oof I don’t envy you having to have this conversation, Lora. I’d absolutely hate to have this with my sister.

I think you’d definitely have to separate the two issues very clearly and tackle your sister about her treatment of J first. It’s probably the more awkward one to have.

I would explain how her behaviour and actions are coming across whether she intends it to or not. That gives you a chance to gently call her out. Even if she flat out denies it it’ll hopefully give her pause for thought.

I think as close as you are to your nephew can you and your sister take a more collaborate approach in knocking the boys squabbling on the head. It also gives you a chance to demonstrate fairness.

[Loralei]

I think you’d definitely have to separate the two issues very clearly

Yes. I agree.

I'm glad I posted this as I can (now) see I'm conflating the two things and it had begun to feel more urgent than it is. Now I've got it off my chest I'm tempted to go completely the other way, tell my sister J flatly denies saying anything to O (and that I'm inclined to believe him) and leave the ball in her court. If she automatically assumes J is lying that might open the door to mention how quick she is to assume J is in the wrong.

I've cancelled her looking after the kids tomorrow. It feels like I'm putting J in an awkward position (although I'm not sure he'll thank me when he finds out he is coming to help with the DIY instead!)

[sally maclennane]

It's really important to me that he feels welcome here, but I worry I might be putting him before J.

This bit really stood out for me, my oldest cousin A (my mum's oldest niece) spent loads of time with us as kids. Her parents both worked full time and my mum and gran looked after her a lot. She was very close to my mum and had a rocky relationship with her own mum so I think she saw my mum as a safe adult to be around. However, i can remember feeling really jealous of her, she was 7 years older than me and took it upon herself to boss me and my brothers around. She got on well with my older brother and she babied my younger brother but she and I clashed quite a lot. I remember wanting to say "she's MY mum" :childish:

Now looking back, I think its admirable that my mum offered her a safe space (A didnt repay this in later years, but that's another story) My aunt really was quite unkind to A, and having another adult as an ally must have been a massive help to her.

Sorry, I'm not sure what the point of all this other than me banging on about it but i guess I empathise with J, while also understanding why you want be O's ally.

[Loralei]

Oh right. I thought you had gone mad there for a minute.

I mean, there's being supportive of your sister and making your life miserable. ADHD might make you annoying but it doesn't make you an arsehole. I'm sure O is probably having a horrible time at the moment for various reasons but I think you should be less accomodating.

I expect we are optimistically hanging a lot of stuff on the ADHD peg when none of us know a lot about it. I mean, I know several children with ADHD who are not annoying (to me, who doesn't have to parent or teach them) but had assumed that it could still be responsible for high levels of arseholery in others. Dammit But regardless of whether it can be pathologised, he is a troubled kid and it's hard to be less accommodating when the crises are so intense. I do think I can (and should) say that, while he's always welcome in my home, that is dependent on him being respectful to all of us.

[Loralei]

Thanks Sal. That is definitely something to think about. It's really hard when one person is hoovering up all the time and attention and I'd never realised that it's not necessarily that adults don't know they're doing it, but sometimes it doesn't feel as if they have a choice.

My younger nephew offered to come and keep me company while I was painting yesterday and we had a good chat about how much attention O is getting. I couldn't do much other than acknowledge it and sympathise, but hopefully that was some help. (He also has an open invitation here but is less likely to stay as he just likes being home. Preferably when O isn't.)

[Luce]

Aagh you poor sod. I have all sorts of feelings about this but none of them bring useful suggestions. I recognise the ostriching and being from a family that Does Not Talk About This Stuff.

I know what I'd want to do (tackle the issue of her not cutting J the same slack as O) but I'd not know how and would almost certainly stick to venting about it to other people and hoping it would eventually right itself. I'd then, having chosen that option, would just try and do damage limitation every time it rears its head. Maybe do that until you can find a solution that you're happy with.

F is treated much more poorly by my BIL/SIL than his brother or his cousins. But it has much less urgency because we see them only a handful of times a year and are not massively close so on a day-to-day basis it has very little impact on F. I think your situation is different in that you are all in each other's lives a lot more so the stakes are higher. I think you should try and work out if you think any of these difficult discussions would result in any real change. This is probably not the right thing to do but if I felt they wouldn't then I'd probably not bring any of it up. Or I'd get drunk and make barbed comments that causes us all to not talk for a few days

Urgh, I wish I had something concrete to say but I do know, as always, that you'll do the right thing by J and your family because you always do. Vent about it to us and trust your instincts whilst thinking about your next step.

[Loralei]

Or I'd get drunk and make barbed comments that causes us all to not talk for a few days

Well, this is clearly the correct way to approach such things Alas she doesn't drink and I don't drink around her, or we'd be sorted. (Thank you for being so nice and I am outraged on behalf of lovely F, too. Clearly your BIL and SIL are idiots.)

[Luce]

Oh honestly, don't be. He is no angel but because he's the oldest/not a girl/not the youngest he also manages to get the brunt when its actually all of them being massive divs.

What does J think about it all? Does he bring it up a lot? Does he have more of an issue with O or is your sister's unfair treatment the thing?

[FiveO'Clock]

You're a very good sister and auntie, you have a right to receive the same back from your sister. My guess is she just doesn't realize how she's coming across.

[Heebie Jeebie]

because he's the oldest/not a girl/not the youngest he also manages to get the brunt when its actually all of them being massive divs.

I think this happens such a lot, it certainly does in my family, and its really tough to watch. Being the oldest and not a girl is a bad combination.

It's such a hard thing to tackle Lora and I don't envy you. I think you're right about using I statements and could you perhaps dress it up as J needing some extra sensitivity because he's envious of the time and energy you have spent on O? I know that's not the actual problem but it might be easier for her to change her behaviour in that context.

[H1ppychick]

I think that approach sounds good, since I think that she needs to be reminded that you’re effectively helping to co-parent her kid, potentially at the expense of time and attention spent on J.

[Loralei]

What does J think about it all? Does he bring it up a lot? Does he have more of an issue with O or is your sister's unfair treatment the thing?

His thing is the sleepover. It's made into a special treat for Berty and TD where they get to choose dinner (usually the most hideous thing on the Dominos menu) and get taken out for the day to do something cool, so you can see why J is gutted to miss out. When the nephews come here they just have to hang out and do whatever we're doing. I'm going to take the pressure off that for a bit by not letting Bert or TD go again until he's had his 'turn'. She doesn't have to have my children to stay at all, but it should be all or nothing.

He's only mentioned how she treats him differently a couple of times but it's definitely on his mind. He's not overly bothered about O unless he has to think about it (when O stays, or when he's accused of being horrid). Like most kids, he can't bear unfairness (who can?) We're lucky to have lots of space here, so I gave O his own room last time, instead of making him share with J, which helped a bit.

The trouble with suggesting J has an issue/is particularly sensitive at the moment is that I don't really want to put it on him. He doesn't have any special requirements other than for his family to love him even when he's being a twat, and to be treated the same as everyone else.

[AshleyX]

Oh, poor J. That really is a tricky one and I don’t have any bright ideas, I’m afraid.

I wonder if all it needs is a throwaway remark to make her realise that she’s doing it and then she might think about it and stop, rather than making it into this massive thing (I’d definitely talk separately about the O thing, and not at the same time).

It reminds me a bit of my sister and her best friend, who has a 4-year-old, F. F hates women for some reason, aside from his mum, and just won’t speak to them, and my sister really disliked him. And she obviously wasn’t very good at hiding it. But her best friend once just burst out: ‘Are you ever going to say *anything* nice about F?’ It had obviously been playing on her mind, but she didn’t make a massive thing about it, but it was enough to make my sister change her thinking and behaviour.