Would you judge...?

[Loralei]

A couple of my friends' exes have moved 'home' to a different country and it just completely bemuses me how they could choose to be so far from their children. I understand the pull of home and family, especially when a relationship breaks up, but still can't imagine choosing only to see your children a couple of times a year, if that.

[Tabitha]

Yes, that always seems very odd to me. I know someone who moved "home" to Belfast with two children, leaving the dad here. It all seemed doable until Covid and now he hasn't seen them for the best part of a year and is thinking he might have to relocate as well even though he doesn't really want to.

[Lily]

A woman I know moved to Dubai with her boyfriend - and took her daughter with her. Her father remains in the UK. I just don't get why you would think that was OK to do to the daughter and the father. It's not like it's an easy drive!

I'm sad to hear you guys have v little contact with M, Pov - I know how hard you worked to maintain a relationship with her. I hope it'll change as she gets older.

[Chicky]

I watched Wanted Down Under at the weekend which had a NZ lady wanting to move back to Australia where her family were. She had an 18 yo daughter and had separated from the daughter’s father some years ago but had stayed in the U.K. so her daughter could grow up with both parents. She was now thinking of moving back to Aus to be near her family, and the daughter was deciding whether to go with her mum or stay in the UK. They didn’t decide in the end so I googled to see what had happened and was faced with a load of vitriol directed at the mother at how appalling it was that she was considering moving and taking her daughter away from her father. I was a bit surprised, surely moving away once your kids have grown up is ok?

Anyway. I prob would judge, while appreciating there are two sides to every story.

[Princess Morripov]

A situation like that though firmly puts the child in the middle and having to make a really difficult decision though? And whilst 18 is an adult, it’s still really young and I imagine you’d have the feeling/guilt that you’ve chosen which parent you prefer in that scenario.

[Hazey_Jane]

Interesting thread Zooms and it's sparked some interest in me, since I was the kid- and still am- that doesn't have contact with my mother. I've wanked on about it on here before but briefly, she walked out on my 14th birthday and almost all contact between then until I was 16.5 was almost always at my instigation. Last time I physically saw her on Christmas Eve 1994 was when I realised she had no interest in me or my life. I remember standing in the kitchen and trying to tell her about my boyfriend at the time, he was my first one and she was more interested in telling me about 'Beryl down the pub'. So I stopped bothering with her and cut contact.

Obviously that's my side of the story, I imagine that her perspective is very different but I have been wondering over the years what she tells the other people in her life about her children. I imagine that she will go on about my Dad and 'that woman' (my stepmum) but they were actually always supportive of whatever decisions I made back then. I did learn a few things later on in life, when I was (allegdly :D) a bit more mature which I didn't need to know back then. With hindsight, I don't think they'd have changed the situation much.

Anyway, rabbitng on and I need to jump on a call but the main point is I suppose I'll never know what she tells other people since I have no plans to change the status quo.

Lily, there are so many dependent factors, it's really not that straightforward to just say it's okay or not.

[sally maclennane]

I don't think 18 is that old, and I think it's unfair to ask an 18 year old to choose which parent to be near.

[Loralei]

I don't know, Chicky; a lot of young adults need their parents around as much as little ones, albeit in a very different way. I feel like it's the child's job to move away from the parents. That's not to say someone shouldn't do it, but the (adult) child should be involved in the decision and their ability to see both parents should come into it. (Which isn't to say the people online were right; that just sounds like a knee jerk judgey mob.)

[Princess Morripov]

Thanks Lily, I think/hope she’ll come through it in a few years time when she realises we only had her best interests at heart and begins to appreciate how hard you need to work to earn money!

[sally maclennane]

Thanks Lily, I think/hope she’ll come through it in a few years time when she realises we only had her best interests at heart and begins to appreciate how hard you need to work to earn money!

J has a friend who was in a similar position as A, his daughters are now in their 20s and he has a good relationship with them. They have both said that they now see how manipulative their mum was, and while they are still close to her, they have a much clearer understanding of the situation, and the efforts their dad made to keep in touch with them.

[Tabitha]

Yeah, 18 is so young. I'd have chosen to stay with my dad at that age, because of the horror of being dragged away from my friends etc. So presumably from then on my only contact with my mum would've been to see her, what, once a year? Twice at best. Given that there were no emails / zoom when I was that age I don't know how I wouldn't have lost touch with her really.

[Duophonic]

It's a difficult one. My knee-jerk reaction is to judge but obviously not knowing the situation. So my response is the same as everyone else's.

I made the decision to stay in Mini's home ground. I've always lived since re-marriage within a mile of her dad and it's been difficult but I was fortunate that he took us both for granted and was never there when we were all together under one roof and leaving to go back to my parent's house (still in the same area 5 miles away) was the jolt he needed to take an interest. They're very close but she's very well aware of how fragile he can be as a person which is something that she saw as she matured and not from any bitching on my account.

My BIL is in a completely different situation - he married someone who I pegged as a dickhead from the first meeting, they married and had a daughter. She left and moved a few hundred miles away, doesn't speak to her child (who was only three at the time), and doesn't have any sort of contact.
BIL brings up their daughter with help from his very elderly parents (in their 80's) and his four other siblings. His ex parents-in-law effectively disowned their own daughter after constantly trying to get her to take an interest in her own child. They see their grandchild a few times a week/help with school pickup etc.

J has been without her mum for 8 years now and it's such a shame as she's a great kid but she has a great support network and I think she'll be ok.

[Zoomer]

I would (silently) judge any parent who had no contact with their child(ren) and seemed OK about it. I would assume that if the parent thought they could share the fact that they had zero contact, they would also mention why unless they did something pretty awful.

He did mention why - their mother is bringing them up Muslim and doesn't agree with them having contact with a non-Muslim. Or something. It sounds a bit dodgy, now I think about it. At the time, I was just thinking "argh, overshare! quick, change topic!" He was very drunk at the time.


I'm sorry you went through that, Hazey.

[Morganna]

I think its sometimes such a big old mess, the dads flake out, the mums make it difficult, everything is built on how they each feel wronged by the other. My friend's ex is a twat, without debate, but she's also a dab hand at outright slagging him off and withholds the few bits of communication he and his family send (often appealing for a reconcilliation), so in her mind her dad and his entire family haven't bothered with her for nearly 3 years...which isn't quite true. My friend thinks its for the best because he's a twat, which I can see. I dunno. Mess. Neither of them is covering themselves in glory from an outsiders POV. But I'd probably feel differently if I was my friend.

I think this is true, and also that as with anything to do with other people we just can't know all the circumstances. It's rarely a linear story, yet the narrative we are told will almost invariably be 'this happened, then that, so this was the result'. Without knowing all the things that have gone on in the subplots and more than we ever could about the personalities of the people involved, we are only ever going to get a partial account.

I think this is true about all kinds of interactions, but the ones involving children are even more complex than the 'reasons for divorce' or 'the evil marriage wrecker' and 'crazy ex' stories. People keep all kinds of things from their children for reasons that make sense to them (usually in the hope that they will protect the children), and then they can't include these reasons in their side of the story, if we get to hear it. Also, often people will tell a story that they believe to be true, but they don't know what they don't know.

It must be doubly heartbreaking not to see your children for what you think are good reasons, and also to know that everyone thinks you are heartless.

[Livilla]

The religious thing would infuriate me, Zoomer. You could have thought that through before having children with someone...

I would try not to judge, as I know two men who have been the ones where contact has been denied by the ex, and seen how hard it has been for them. One was just a bog-standard parents break up and ex wife takes young child hundreds os miles away to be close to her support network, and then tries to prevent the father having contact because she doesn't like him very much.The other was someone I line-managed at work. His ex-wife was an alcoholic and he went through merry hell as she tried to prevent him seeing his kids (repeated false allegations against him etc etc) despite them being taken into care a couple of times due to her inability to care for them as a result of her drinking.

I did also have another colleague who showed what it's like to put your children first though. She and her husband had both moved to the UK from Australia, had two children and then split up. A couple of years later her husband found out that his mother was terminally ill, and he told her that he'd made the difficult choice to move back to Australia to be with his Mum for the final months of her life, and he was really upset about being so far away from his children, but he'd hopefully have the rest of his life to make up for the time he would miss with them. After much thought she decided to leave her job and move back to Australia as well, so he'd still be able to spend time with his young children.

[Derek Nimmo]

I remember you mentioning that before Liv, it's a hell of a sacrifice for your kids but hopefully one they will really appreciate in the future. Are you in touch with her any more?

I was thinking about this a bit more last night - it was definitely a red flag to me when dating, as either you're faced with someone who's that much of an arsehole that they don't make an effort with their own kids, or someone who has an incredibly difficult relationship with their ex, neither of which I wanted anything to do with. As/if/when etc I'm back on the market again (!), I can't see me changing my mind about that.

[Kenickie]

I don't think 18 is that old, and I think it's unfair to ask an 18 year old to choose which parent to be near.

Yes, totally. I think when you decide to have a child you make a lifelong commitment to be there for them, you don't get to just l your hands the minute they're legally an adult. Not that you can't live your life at all, but choosing to go so far away when they're still quite young doesn't sit right with me.

[Livilla]

I remember you mentioning that before Liv, it's a hell of a sacrifice for your kids but hopefully one they will really appreciate in the future. Are you in touch with her any more?

We're in light touch via Linked In, but not otherwise. She's done very well for herself work wise since moving back though, so I'm pleased it's all worked out for her.

[Chicky]

I don't think 18 is that old, and I think it's unfair to ask an 18 year old to choose which parent to be near.

Yes, totally. I think when you decide to have a child you make a lifelong commitment to be there for them, you don't get to just l your hands the minute they're legally an adult. Not that you can't live your life at all, but choosing to go so far away when they're still quite young doesn't sit right with me.

But the 18 yo in this case was deciding whether to go to
Uni in Australia or the UK. If she goes away to university, then how is that any different. I don’t know. Should the mother (who had already made a sacrifice not to move back to her family 18 years previously) stay in the U.K. indefinitely? What if her 18yo wanted to study in the US, should she and the father move there too? What age is appropriate? I’m not a parent obviously

[Leap]

Hazey, what an experience to go through. Certainly in your case it’s not at all about seeing sides - there have been plenty of opportunities for any possible miscommunications or whatever to be put right, and no effort has been made. I’m glad you can speak of it so well but I’m sure it’s not been a simple thing to work through.

I also find it hard to understand how someone wouldn’t fight tooth and nail to see their children, but I also appreciate people have children under various circumstances that are not my own. I don’t think it excuses them, but I think it can help them think they can excuse themselves.

My parents have friends who had 3 children, and we grew up like cousins and very much part of each other’s families. In her twenties the youngest went “off the rails” and by the time she turned 30 is no longer part of the family. Her dad died after a months long illness and I don’t even know if she was told directly, and nowadays her mum tells people she has 2 children. No photos or acknowledgement of the third child in her life.

The issues do run deeper than I was initially told (very serious drug addiction for example), but I still find it unfathomable that you could have a daughter in the world who you raised and very close to for 20+ years and now pretend she didn’t exist? My mum has given up trying to talk about it, the mum of the family is very firm she will not discuss it and I honestly think would cut my mum out too if she kept trying.