University advice needed

[Duophonic]

I need a bit of perspective on this and I've been out of the academic way of life for many years.

The crux is that Mini is due to go into her final year and messaged me yesterday saying that she's intending on quitting.

Now I have a lot of feelings about this none of them supportive and wanted a group consensus.

Mini has only ever wanted an adult career in something to do with English so much so as time has progressed, she is convinced that it is the only skill she has.

She didn't fit in well with school as she isn't a box ticker. I persuaded her to stay on until 6th year, her exam results were great, and she had her pick of Unis.

She started Uni and found her people after a shaky bedding in period but after that all was good until 3rd year.
Her beef specifically is she fought for a diagnosis as she always felt she wasn't on a level playing field, she got her diagnosis with a range of things, she pushed for autism but was told no. She was granted disability services and (I don't know the full ins and outs) was given a contact and dispensation in written exams (time management is especially difficult). She feels she requires/deserves more support, and everything is a struggle.

She then deferred a year 3rd year after consultation with her advisors and I was ok with that

She then enters 3rd year proper and of course C19 hits, she'll progress to 4th year automatically I think.

If she quits now she won't be awarded the degree as it's a four year honours graduating with an MA and of course if she was at another Uni she'd have graduated after 3years

She has given me all the usual chat of I can't deal with it, it's sucked all the fun out of reading, I'm sick of it and I'll go back to education later as I don't want to graduate with a mediocre mark.

My opinion is - you won't go back, life gets in the way, a mediocre mark is easier to explain in interview than no degree and if I'm completely honest all I can think is fucking pull your socks up and understand how privilaged you are to even be doing a degree. Life's fucking tedious, deal with it.

I've never spoken to her in this way I've always tried to reason things out but on the flip side of that Mr D has always said that I mollycoddle her and allowed her to quit things too easy.

TL;DR - do I let Mini quit uni?

[Morganna]

You can't really stop her, TBH. The choice comes down to whether she decides to stay, leaves with your blessing or leaves without it and (probably) an atmosphere between you. It's maddening (J did the same thing), but you can't live their lives for them, however tempting it is to wish that you could just tell them what to do .

The good thing is that she probably won't be alone - my guess is that a lot of students will defer the coming year, as it will be awful. Leaving because she doesn't want to learn via Zoom is a far better reason to give in an interview than 'I couldn't hack it', and she probably can go back if she wants to later on. You are right that life can get in the way, but at the same time, maturity comes with age, and can be a great driver. Doing a dissertation when you are properly motivated will be a million times better than forcing yourself to stick with it just to get through, and she will probably do better anyway.

I don't know the Scottish system, but in England you qualify for a DipHE if you leave before the final year and have passed at Level 5 (our 2nd year). There is also a CertHE if you leave after the first year (level 4). You usually have to request it, though, so if she does decide to defer, be sure that she gets that, as some Universities will charge to give one later, and records are destroyed after 10 years because of GDPR.

[Roma]

I wouldn’t let her quit if you can help it. It would have been different if she’d been in her first year, but she‘s so close to getting her degree now.

So many more doors will open to her with a degree even if it’s just a mediocre one. I’ve never met anyone who regretted getting a degree. Just one more year and she’ll have a qualification for the rest of her life.

What is she planning to do for a living without a degree, is she thinking of another qualification?

[Duophonic]

Yep Morgs. It was a bad choice of words. I can't of course stop her as she's an adult but yes it will cause tension between us.

My understanding is that the uni has been very regressive in dealing with C19 but her 4th year will be spent on a dissertation which will be a solo project rather than attending classes.

She works in a supermarket as a relatively senior member of staff and is planning to continue to do that full time.

[sally maclennane]

I thought if she left now, she'd have an ordinary degree but not honours, although to be honest, its over 20 years since I was there so it may well have changed!

[smalex]

Oh gosh. Difficult. I'd really want her to continue too, but I'm a person who tends to grit my teeth and plod on (this has been both a blessing and a curse, variously) but I can see a year feels like an awfully long time if you're not enjoying something. Could you have a talk with her and see if there are ways of mitigating her concerns/issues? Has she spoken to any of her tutors?

I know two people who walked from their degrees in the very final few weeks. I'll never get my head around that really. One has done pretty well for himself and the other is a serial quitter, degrees, jobs, volunteering, travelling, boyfriend, shes quit the lot.

It must be such a worry, itll be incredibly hard for graduates now anyway, even worse without a degree.

[Leap]

I know this isn’t the same for everyone, and things may have moved in a different direction these days/dependent on your social circle but I can’t express enough how much of a chip I had on my shoulder for years (and occasionally even now) for not finishing uni. I know a few people who are the same, and I am also very acutely aware that although I have worked hard and progressed well to a good position in my company (where I was working when I dropped out), I am for example not earning what I would’ve done if I had finished the degree.

There are loads of opportunities in my company that are not dependent on degrees, but a degree is a much quicker shortcut to some of the really interesting ones. And I also can’t express enough how grating it is to graft your tits off getting great at something, only for a literal 20 year old to saunter in on a graduate job opportunity and do the same thing you do but poorly and for more money, then vault off to an even better position as quickly as they arrived.

I did mention the chip, didn’t I? I’m proud of what I have achieved, but I just think it’s important for her to know that even if she stays on at her current job after finishing her degree (something I know of a few people who did the same in call centres/retail) it would still absolutely be of use to her even if it doesn’t seem that way now. She’s worked so hard and she’s obviously good at it, just a wee bit more and then she never has to look back.

A really unbiased opinion there, I know

[Duophonic]

I have no idea Sal. It could be that she does walk away with a degree I'd need to ask her.

I'm the same Smal, I'm a 'I've started so I'll finish' type of person and in one way I'm thinking 'have I been too soft?' 'should I apply tough love'.

[sally maclennane]

My friend works there, if you want I can ask her what she thinks? Just for general advice.

Their system is so archaic, the 4 year degree is an undergraduate honours degree but they call it an MA (same as Oxbridge) You certainly used to have the option to do a 3 year degree there and be awarded an MA, it was classed as an ordinary degree. I knew a few people who did that when I was there.

[Duophonic]

That's interesting Leap.

My background is that I completed my degree, went back to Uni and graduated again but none of the bits of paper I collected I actually used in my career but I don't for a second regret those bits of paper or the work put in to achieve them.

Mini and I are so similar but complete opposites in some respects.

She is more of a traditional academic, her interests have always been in literature, she's always harboured a desire to become an archivist and from my research requires at least a Masters in which her University is one of a handful that offers the Masters course needed.

My interests were always more scientific, and my eventual career path would've been more suited to me undertaking an apprenticeship, but I had to fight to get interviews etc due to more and more IT grads coming onto the scene and the years of entry level positions rather than moving up the ladder due to not having an IT degree but I've made my peace with that.

Her supermarket work has been the making of her and she's rose through the ranks relatively quickly and is highly regarded.

I'd be interested to hear what her work mammie thinks of this.

[Duophonic]

That would be great, Sal if you could.

Thank you all. I really appreciate it.

[sally maclennane]

That would be great, Sal if you could.

Thank you all. I really appreciate it.

Have Whatsappd you!

[AshleyX]

Urgh. I’d be really tempted to go hard on this as it’s the kind of thing I might have done at mini’s age (and did, with other things) and my parents (hippies, basically) always took a really gentle, hands-off approach, and I think it would have been better for me had they not.

BUT she may be the kind of person who is more likely to dig her heels in if you try to push her hand. It’s very tricky, and I think she’s definitely regret it at some point in her life. But how to tell a stubborn early-20s/late teen that and get it to sink in!

[kiwi]

I can see both sides of the argument here, it's a tricky one. However I can see why she might find her job the better attraction if she is doing so well, in light of the issues she's had in earlier days. Maybe it's the first time she's felt accepted and successful? I can fully understand why you feel that she would be throwing her education away though.

[Morganna]

Duo, I wasn't suggesting that it would be a good thing for her to leave, for all the reasons the others have raised - just that pragmatically if she is determined not to do it just now the choice is between trying to talk her out of it and letting her make her own mistakes. J had a year faffing about doing nothing much after he left (he delivered takeaways, and it cost more to put him on the car insurance than he earned ) but then started work in an entry level job (helped enormously by Lilabet), and he's never looked back. He's got a different job in the same field now, and seems to be doing well, although he's not particularly ambitious and may well have 'done better' if he's stayed and completed his degree. He insists that he did the right thing for him, though, and has no intention of going back to study. Actually, I say that, but he has taken several professional exams over the years, so that's not strictly true.

I found it difficult at first - after working so long in HE, I had just assumed that my children would finish university, but I had to accept that it was never my choice to make, and it didn't work out badly in the end.

[Ruby]

God this is hard. I don't know what the right thing is to do but I think that pushing hard is likely to be counterproductive. I think it's really common to get a bit lost or disillusioned when you are Minis age and - generally - it helps you grow as a person. But really it would be much better to decide all of this AFTER she's got her degree.

I really did not enjoy university as much as I thought I would and I was quite an immature 18 year old in a lot of ways. I am, however, eternally grateful that I finished my degree as - once I decided what I actually wanted to do - it made everything much smoother. I lost my early 20s to faffing around and working in bars and a hideous abortive career in banking, but having a degree made it easier to switch tracks.

[Loralei]

I dropped out of my first degree at the end of the first year. My parents were not supportive and I remember feeling desperate. My stepmother was the only one who really listened and talked my parents round (sort of). I was extremely depressed (mostly because of my bloody parents and their inability to adult ), which it doesn't sound as if Mini is? I don't think they could have dissuaded me, anyway. It's hard to say whether I regret it; it was the wrong course for me and I went back two years later. At that time I was doing pretty well in my placeholder job but went back because it would always have been unfinished business and, if I hadn't, I expect I would have an almighty chip on my shoulder. I don't work in anything remotely connected to my eventual degree subject (English Lit) but got there via a graduate programme.

Do make sure she checks out the feasibility of returning. Student finance is a law unto itself. I had to jump through hoops to return, finding lecturers from my old course who remembered me and would vouch for me, obtaining info from the GP who'd seen me once, 2.5 years previously etc. I know that loans aren't usually available for students who've done a previous degree and I don't know their cut-off. It would definitely be worth her checking with them before she makes any decisions.

[Froozy]

Is there a careers/mentor type person at work she could talk to? It’s possible they’ve had a certain path in mind for her because they’re expecting her to have a degree next year but even if not they might be able to give her a clear idea of her options with and without a degree.

[Squirrel]

But really it would be much better to decide all of this AFTER she's got her degree.

This is the crux of it. I dropped out of uni, it’s never bothered or affected me and I haven’t felt like it held me back in job interviews or anything BUT, I had a completely directionless pointless career (in three different roles) and never particularly wanted to do anything. I am also quite good in interviews and went for the sort of jobs where it’s possible to talk your way in.

If she is ambitious or has a particular direction in mind or is generally a hard working achieving kind of person, then I’d say it’s even more important to finish the degree as it could hold her back.

I always had in the back of my head that I could finish my degree if I wanted/needed to but that never happened, in fact as I got older and wiser I realised that academia really isn’t for me in any shape or form, and I was never suited to it.

I realise this is a bit of a mixed response. I personally don’t regret not finishing my degree but i think for most career minded people it would be the wrong choice and unless she’s seriously in crisis, the best thing to do would be to grit her teeth and try and see it through.

[Duophonic]

Thanks all.

I think she really needs to do a lot of soul searching and being honest with herself before a final decision is made.

She's worried she doesn't get the degree mark she feels she deserves and she needs a 2:1 to progress to the Masters although I think if she fell short because of her being known at the Uni she'd maybe get a bit of a pass. She's well-liked by the tutors from what I can gather.

I have a suspicion that she uses her diagnosis as a get out of jail free card and assumes that else finds uni life a breeze.

She currently gets her fees paid by the state which I'm not sure how it stands if she leaves and returns. I think it would be non-existent and I normally financially prop her up when needed which I wouldn't do on principal in this instance unless she was in danger of being in dire straits.