Simon Baron-Cohen can stuff right off

[baargain]

Hello! I hope it's OK to bump this.

Bats - do you have any idea of where one can find groups of women with ASD? One of my supervisees has a client who would like to find groups or online forums or anywhere where people who will get her are hanging out.

I'm in Norfolk if that's of any use.

[Smunder Woman]

Hello! I hope it's OK to bump this.

Bats - do you have any idea of where one can find groups of women with ASD? One of my supervisees has a client who would like to find groups or online forums or anywhere where people who will get her are hanging out.

I'm in Norfolk if that's of any use.

I'm not Bats, but Twitter is a great place to start. I know this because Bats introduced me to loads of people on there :)) The #actuallyautistic hashtag may be helpful

[baargain]

Ooh, I will see if she does twitter. Thank you!

[Bat Macdui]

There's a Facebook one called British Women with Aspergers - UK online Connect Group. It's a good starting point, and there's a lot of informal meetups organised through it. It's a bit moany for me but I found it really useful when I was first looking for support.

[baargain]

Brilliant, thank you both!

[Bat Macdui]

Just to have another bang on about this, Cambridge Autism Research Centre (bloody Baron-Cohen AGAIN) have published this today;

Scientists at the University of Cambridge have completed the world’s largest ever study of typical sex differences and autistic traits. They tested and confirmed two long-standing psychological theories: the Empathising-Systemising theory of sex differences and the Extreme Male Brain theory of autism.

Apparently Baron-Cohen was on Today on Radio 4 this morning, wanking on about it with full encouragement.

It is such absolute, banner-sexist-headline-making bullshit. From a feminist point of view, it takes no account of differences in upbringing/society expectations. It's self reported. And if he says 'Extreme Male Brain' again for autistic women, I will go over and punch him, I swear to fucking GOD I will.

When I am less cross I might rant again, but it's getting a tonne of actual new coverage PLUS it's a complete shoe in for people who might like to claim that there's pink brains and blue brains.

[Smunder Woman]

Do I want to read it? I probably should. I'm determined to mention him being a cock in my thesis.

[Bat Macdui]

You're better off reading that than the articles about it. Though the Times one has a good rebuttal of it by some feminist commentators (though not autistic commentators).

Dean Burnett is doing a bit of Sky about it, I like him and he's also cross. :))

[Smunder Woman]

You're better off reading that than the articles about it. Though the Times one has a good rebuttal of it by some feminist commentators (though not autistic commentators).

Dean Burnett is doing a bit of Sky about it, I like him and he's also cross. :))

I've saved a PDF of the paper in case you want to properly rage about it :))

[Bat Macdui]

I have too much period pain and angst to read it today. I am a hair's breadth from emailing him and shouting. :))

[Smunder Woman]

I have too much period pain and angst to read it today. I am a hair's breadth from emailing him and shouting. :))

Yes. Maybe don't read it today :)) Do email him, I bet he gets loads like that anyway.

[Bat Macdui]

One of my Twitter friends emailed him years ago about the empathy thing and apparently got quite a kind response. It's annoying as I think he's probably actually halfway decent as a human being, but he just will not be parted from trying to prove his whole STEM/Systemizing/Extreme Male Brain thing.

[Smunder Woman]

Monotropic, perhaps :))

[Bat Macdui]

:lol: In the flow.

[Zoomer]

The Empathising-Systemising theory predicts that women, on average, will score higher than men on tests of empathy, the ability to recognize what another person is thinking or feeling, and to respond to their state of mind with an appropriate emotion. Similarly, it predicts that men, on average, will score higher on tests of systemising, the drive to analyse or build rule-based systems.
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They underline that these data say nothing about an individual based on their gender, autism diagnosis, or occupation. To do that would constitute stereotyping and discrimination, which the authors strongly oppose.

:shifty:

God, I hope Cordelia Fine is busy writing a counter to this bullshit.

[Smunder Woman]

The thing I find with SBC is that I'll be nodding along to what he's saying, and then he chucks this pink and blue brains bullshit in. I mean, I get that the male female divide probably seemed relevant in the 80s, but surely things have moved on. I would like to speak to him though, I wonder if I could wangle that at some point

[Bat Macdui]

Yes - Times article with Cordelia Fine. :)) Paywall though.

"Professor Cordelia Fine, of the University of Melbourne, author of Testosterone Rex: Unmasking the Myths of Our Gendered Minds, pointed out that, according to the Cambridge team’s own findings, sex differences are such that were you to choose a man and woman at random, their scores would be counter to expectations, with the man scoring higher than the woman on empathy about four times in ten. She added that only a minority of non-autistic men have Type S or extreme Type S (“male”) brains and only a minority of non-autistic women have Type E or extreme Type E (“female”) brains."

We could have done with someone to comment and point out the issues with self-reporting in autistic people, the nature of the questions (if literal, if open, both being problematic) and the mess made of figures by number of diagnosed women (much fewer than men, maybe have different trait combinations) BECAUSE HIS THEORY LED TO A LACK OF FEMALE DIAGNOSIS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[Bat Macdui]

The thing I find with SBC is that I'll be nodding along to what he's saying, and then he chucks this pink and blue brains bullshit in. I mean, I get that the male female divide probably seemed relevant in the 80s, but surely things have moved on. I would like to speak to him though, I wonder if I could wangle that at some point

Do try, I would like to know what he's actually like in person.

I mean he started trying to understand how the Holocaust could have happened, and how 'ordinary' people could carry out atrocities that contribute to genocide, so I kind of get where his whole empathy obsession thing comes from. But he needs to let this go now.

Plus, the emerging evidence is that autistic people just have higher levels of alexithymia and interoception issues than the general population, so asking them about empathy without factoring that in is plain daft.

[Smunder Woman]

Times article:

The much-maligned but longstanding idea that women enjoy discussing their emotions while men are mostly excited by cars may be true after all.

Scientists conducting the world’s largest study of sex differences in the brain found men were more likely to prefer “things” and “systems”, while women were more interested in people and emotions. Men were almost twice as likely as women to be “systems-orientated” rather than empathetic and vice versa.

Scientists at Cambridge University surveyed more than 650,000 people and said that their results confirmed two theories: first, the empathising- systemising theory of sex differences, which predicts that, at the population level, men will be more excited by coding, for instance, while women will be more attuned to feelings; second, the extreme male brain theory, which predicts that the brains of autistic people are more “masculine” than is typical for their sex, in that they are more systems-focused.

The twin theories, from the Cambridge scientist Simon Baron-Cohen, are controversial and have previously been described as “neurosexism”.

James Damore, a former Google engineer, cited the empathising-systemising theory in a leaked memo to colleagues for which he was sacked last year, arguing that women were underrepresented in tech not because of sexism and discrimination but because of innate biological differences. Based on responses from 671,606 people, mostly in Britain, the Cambridge team said in a paper published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences that gender differences in brain types were “very clear”. However, they said that it was not apparent to what extent they were down to inherited characteristics or socialisation.


In the study, 44.4 per cent of men who were not autistic were categorised as having a “Type S” or “extreme Type S” brain, scoring higher “systemising” than empathy, compared with 27.3 per cent of women. Professor Baron-Cohen has previously dubbed the Type S, or systemising, brain the “male brain”.

At the same time, 42.9 per cent of non-autistic women had “Type E” brains, scoring higher on empathy than systemising, compared with 24.6 per cent of men. Professor Baron-Cohen has called the Type E brain the “female brain”. The remainder of non-autistic participants had “Type B” or “balanced” brains.

Among autistic participants, 62.4 per cent of men were categorised as Type S or extreme Type S, and 46.8 per cent of women. That compared with 13.7 per cent of autistic men and 23.1 per cent of autistic women categorised as Type E or extreme Type E — meaning autistic people were much more likely than non-autistic people of their gender to have “masculine” brain traits.

Professor Baron-Cohen said the research highlighted the qualities autistic people bring to neurodiversity, saying: “They are on average strong systemisers, meaning they have excellent pattern-recognition skills, excellent attention to detail and an aptitude in understanding how things work. We must support their talents so they achieve their potential, and society benefits too.”

Critics said the results depended on self-reporting, which may be unreliable. The findings were based on participants’ “agree/disagree” answers to statements, such as “I am good at predicting how someone will feel”.

Professor Gina Rippon, of Aston University, author of The Gendered Brain, said: “Such self-report measures are prone to the kind of distortions caused by stereotypes – people who know you are measuring empathy are more likely to present themselves in more of an ‘empathic’ light than unprimed behaviour might indicate.”

The authors stress that differences observed in this study apply “only to group averages, not to individuals”. They say that to make inferences based on gender, autism diagnosis or occupation would constitute stereotyping and discrimination with which they “strongly disagree”.

Dr Varun Warrier, a member of the Cambridge team, said: “These sex differences in the typical population are very clear. We know from related studies that individual differences in empathy and systemising are partly genetic, partly influenced by our prenatal hormonal exposure, and partly due to environmental experience. We need to investigate the extent to which these observed sex differences are due to each of these factors, and how these interact.”

Professor Rippon added: “The participants in this study were aged between 16 and 89 years old – plenty of time to have absorbed the gendered messages to which they will have been exposed. In an era where bombardment by stereotypical gendered messages is ever present and where we are still subject to widely publicised outbursts concerning women’s unsuitability for scientific careers, I am concerned about the take-home message that may be extracted from this paper.”

Professor Cordelia Fine, of the University of Melbourne, author of Testosterone Rex: Unmasking the Myths of Our Gendered Minds, pointed out that, according to the Cambridge team’s own findings, sex differences are such that were you to choose a man and woman at random, their scores would be counter to expectations, with the man scoring higher than the woman on empathy about four times in ten. She added that only a minority of non-autistic men have Type S or extreme Type S (“male”) brains and only a minority of non-autistic women have Type E or extreme Type E (“female”) brains.Share
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The much-maligned but longstanding idea that women enjoy discussing their emotions while men are mostly excited by cars may be true after all.

Scientists conducting the world’s largest study of sex differences in the brain found men were more likely to prefer “things” and “systems”, while women were more interested in people and emotions. Men were almost twice as likely as women to be “systems-orientated” rather than empathetic and vice versa.

Scientists at Cambridge University surveyed more than 650,000 people and said that their results confirmed two theories: first, the empathising- systemising theory of sex differences, which predicts that, at the population level, men will be more excited by coding, for instance, while women will be more attuned to feelings; second, the extreme male brain theory, which predicts that the brains of autistic people are more “masculine” than is typical for their sex, in that they are more systems-focused.

The twin theories, from the Cambridge scientist Simon Baron-Cohen, are controversial and have previously been described as “neurosexism”.

James Damore, a former Google engineer, cited the empathising-systemising theory in a leaked memo to colleagues for which he was sacked last year, arguing that women were underrepresented in tech not because of sexism and discrimination but because of innate biological differences. Based on responses from 671,606 people, mostly in Britain, the Cambridge team said in a paper published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences that gender differences in brain types were “very clear”. However, they said that it was not apparent to what extent they were down to inherited characteristics or socialisation.


In the study, 44.4 per cent of men who were not autistic were categorised as having a “Type S” or “extreme Type S” brain, scoring higher “systemising” than empathy, compared with 27.3 per cent of women. Professor Baron-Cohen has previously dubbed the Type S, or systemising, brain the “male brain”.

At the same time, 42.9 per cent of non-autistic women had “Type E” brains, scoring higher on empathy than systemising, compared with 24.6 per cent of men. Professor Baron-Cohen has called the Type E brain the “female brain”. The remainder of non-autistic participants had “Type B” or “balanced” brains.

Among autistic participants, 62.4 per cent of men were categorised as Type S or extreme Type S, and 46.8 per cent of women. That compared with 13.7 per cent of autistic men and 23.1 per cent of autistic women categorised as Type E or extreme Type E — meaning autistic people were much more likely than non-autistic people of their gender to have “masculine” brain traits.

Professor Baron-Cohen said the research highlighted the qualities autistic people bring to neurodiversity, saying: “They are on average strong systemisers, meaning they have excellent pattern-recognition skills, excellent attention to detail and an aptitude in understanding how things work. We must support their talents so they achieve their potential, and society benefits too.”

Critics said the results depended on self-reporting, which may be unreliable. The findings were based on participants’ “agree/disagree” answers to statements, such as “I am good at predicting how someone will feel”.

Professor Gina Rippon, of Aston University, author of The Gendered Brain, said: “Such self-report measures are prone to the kind of distortions caused by stereotypes – people who know you are measuring empathy are more likely to present themselves in more of an ‘empathic’ light than unprimed behaviour might indicate.”

The authors stress that differences observed in this study apply “only to group averages, not to individuals”. They say that to make inferences based on gender, autism diagnosis or occupation would constitute stereotyping and discrimination with which they “strongly disagree”.

Dr Varun Warrier, a member of the Cambridge team, said: “These sex differences in the typical population are very clear. We know from related studies that individual differences in empathy and systemising are partly genetic, partly influenced by our prenatal hormonal exposure, and partly due to environmental experience. We need to investigate the extent to which these observed sex differences are due to each of these factors, and how these interact.”

Professor Rippon added: “The participants in this study were aged between 16 and 89 years old – plenty of time to have absorbed the gendered messages to which they will have been exposed. In an era where bombardment by stereotypical gendered messages is ever present and where we are still subject to widely publicised outbursts concerning women’s unsuitability for scientific careers, I am concerned about the take-home message that may be extracted from this paper.”

Professor Cordelia Fine, of the University of Melbourne, author of Testosterone Rex: Unmasking the Myths of Our Gendered Minds, pointed out that, according to the Cambridge team’s own findings, sex differences are such that were you to choose a man and woman at random, their scores would be counter to expectations, with the man scoring higher than the woman on empathy about four times in ten. She added that only a minority of non-autistic men have Type S or extreme Type S (“male”) brains and only a minority of non-autistic women have Type E or extreme Type E (“female”) brains.

[Smunder Woman]

The thing I find with SBC is that I'll be nodding along to what he's saying, and then he chucks this pink and blue brains bullshit in. I mean, I get that the male female divide probably seemed relevant in the 80s, but surely things have moved on. I would like to speak to him though, I wonder if I could wangle that at some point

Do try, I would like to know what he's actually like in person.

I mean he started trying to understand how the Holocaust could have happened, and how 'ordinary' people could carry out atrocities that contribute to genocide, so I kind of get where his whole empathy obsession thing comes from. But he needs to let this go now.

Plus, the emerging evidence is that autistic people just have higher levels of alexithymia and interoception issues than the general population, so asking them about empathy without factoring that in is plain daft.

I will try. I will get my supervisor on the case :))