Simon Baron-Cohen can stuff right off

[ParisGal]

Thank you for the 101, Bats, that's all really interesting.

I read something the other day by an autistic woman who said, along the lines of the speed-dating anecdote, that girls are pressured so much more to be nice / polite / etc that many fewer of them present the stereotypical autistic traits. Yet another "female brain" fallacy maybe?

My aunt was apparently diagnosed (in her late 60s), and I've always been a bit dubious about it, because although she is and always has been very different, it didn't fit with anything I'd heard or read about autism. So I shall try some of your further information suggestions to see whether it does in fact fit.

[Bat Macdui]

I saw something quite recently that went some way to 'explain' (not the right word) why women so often go undiagnosed. Knowing me, it was probably on FB, but it was a short documentary involving a speed-dating scenario, where all the women had been diagnosed with autism, and none of the men noticed that there was anything different about them at all. The point that came across was that they all made such a huge effort in social situations that they came across as quite the opposite to how they actually felt inside! Most of them said that, although they were glad to have taken part, the situation was so stressful for them that they had had to lock themselves away to recover.

That was from the Channel 4 Are you autistic? documentary that went out this year, which was mostly good, despite having Baron-Chen in it *spit*. I follow several of the women in it on Twitter, and one of them cracks me up so much. She's autistic and she's an employment trainer with NAS, so her job is basically travelling up and down the country giving training to organisations on how to make the workplace more autism accessible. She is immensely professional and contributes to research papers etc. Her special interest is One Direction, specifically Harry Styles, so her Twitter feed is loads of stuff like what I am throwing out here, plus pictures of half naked Harry Styles. I'm going to the NAS Women and Girls Conference in September and she's speaking at it and me and a couple of other women are thinking of knocking up an 'Emily and Harry 4EVA' banner to wave at the end of her presentation. Yes, I am that mature.

Which all deviates a bit from the point, which is yes, autistic women tend to be brilliant at masking, which is what you have to do to fit in. Masking is pretending to be normal. Doing that whole bouncy, bubbly, engaged, eye contact thing. It's a feminist issue again, because obviously there's significantly less pressure on men to do this, so they do it less. It's starting to be recognised now that masking comes with a huge, huge cost though. You just can't do it constantly without exhaustion and breakdown and endless mental health problems.

I am very glad people are sitting comfortably. :)) I like this way of info dumping, I don't have to worry if you've all glazed over. Plus it is helping me marshal what's important. I'm going to do a series of talks next year with a local autism trainer, to teenagers who are autistic and their parent (yes, I am PANIC STATIONS about this already). They will be about living well on the spectrum and a lot of it will be FFS, don't do what I did, but it helps me to articulate what I want to say.

[Bat Macdui]

I'm a teacher (maybe the one you were trying to remember) and I'll definitely do the module, thanks for sharing. I have an autistic girl in my class this year, currently undiagnosed due to parents refusing for years but being diagnosed at the moment, and have definitely taught other girls with traits. Your recommendations are really helpful, as well as generally interesting.

Yes, I thought it was you, but then I wondered if I had you mixed up with Humbugger, that similar username thing. I am glad to be able to help a bit.

[Mrs Danvers]

The female masking thing with all of its attendant issues leading to very real health crises for young women and everything-yet again- being built around men is actually making my blood boil reading this. I realise this probably wasn’t your intention :)) but fuck me. It’s actually really shocking.

[cluefree]

I fed a bit weird repeating how fascinating this all is because of course, it’s your life and has been a really hard thing for you, but it IS fascinating. Maybe I’ve not been so interested before because it seems like such a men’s issue. :misandrist:

[cluefree]

Also I think your talks are a bloody brilliant idea and will do so many young women such a lot of good. You are a good egg.

[Bat Macdui]

The female masking thing with all of its attendant issues leading to very real health crises for young women and everything-yet again- being built around men is actually making my blood boil reading this. I realise this probably wasn’t your intention :)) but fuck me. It’s actually really shocking.

I went to last year's NAS Women and Girls conference and there was a whole bunch of us tweeting stuff with #NASWomenandGirls and you would not* believe the number of autistic men who popped up going 'what about the menz'. Like it hadn't been all about the menz for fucking decades. :verm:

There is still loads of stuff people have posted I want to pick up on, so I am sorry if you've said something and it looks like I have ignored you. I suspect this thread could go on a bit. :))



*You would actually all too easily believe, wouldn't you? :))

[Ruby]

I agree that I've never had the opportunity, professionally, to speak to an autistic adult and it would be so useful.

Autistic kids are drawn to GCSE History like moths to a flame. :)) Which I personally encourage as they often have shit Year 6 SATS, but encyclopedic niche knowledge that will help them ace the exam and make my progress stats look amazing. :lol:

I am particularly interested in ASD girls at the moment. I had a student last year who had had years of anxiety and social problems at school - despite being nice and middle-class and bright - she was diagnosed as being autistic in Year 11. Looking back now, it was obvious, but I was quite surprised. It was also weird that as soon as she was diagnosed, she started acting like Sheldon. Whether it was genuine and she had just stopped trying to contain it, or whether she was role-playing as what she **thought** an autistic person should be, I just don't know. It made me sad because I could see a lot of struggles ahead of her whereas autistic boys often seem quite sorted by the time they leave school.

I also think there are potential issues with how ASD girls relate to gender/sexuality. The girls at my school who have recently decided they are boys all have an autistic ... vibe about them. I will not derail the thread with that though.

I will answer the PhD question later when I'm not on my phone, but it's basically about levels of knowledge and whether there is a difference in how the progression happens in neurotypical v ASD. Of course, that may be enough for most people, but I will wang on a bit anyway :))

I 100% want to know about this.

[Glint]

Bats, you will be fantastic at giving talks. Just talk as you’re writing and passing information to us, it’s brilliantly pitched.

[Ruby]

Also. I would like to know how many people, after reading this thread, have diagnosed themselves or a family member as being autistic. :lol:

[Bat Macdui]

I would like to know that, and to put the information in a spreadsheet.

Glint, thank you. I am worried mostly about pitching it wrong (not age appropriate) and forgetting not to swear or going all monotone earnest. I will practise first. On Ruby.

[Mrs Danvers]

I’m outing Mr D for the spreadsheet:)) I genuinely think he is somewhere on the spectrum but don’t want to belittle what Bats and Smund are saying.

[Rebel Pebble]

I am finding all of this fascinating, and think you're incredible for having got to this point after everything you've been through. And so very clear and articulate in your rants. I'm also a bit angry about the feminist aspect, like Mrs D. How have men managed to own this for so long? FFS.

'm definitely pondering some stuff about myself, which I've always just stuck under the label of introversion. e.g. Noise in public places (see: rants about TVs in reception areas :verm:), mild obsession over odd topics, the exhaustion of socialising and need for recovery time, and some stuff from childhood/adolescence. I have no idea idea though and, again like Mrs D, wouldn't want to minimise what you and Smunder have dealt with.

[Glint]

Also. I would like to know how many people, after reading this thread, have diagnosed themselves or a family member as being autistic. :lol:

Yes, I'll put my hand up to myself and S and my dad :))

[Bat Macdui]

I’m outing Mr D for the spreadsheet:)) I genuinely think he is somewhere on the spectrum but don’t want to belittle what Bats and Smund are saying.

To go a bit monotone earnest again, I think it's really important to talk about it. Autism has so long been children (WTF do people think happens when we grow up, we just cure ourselves?) and weird men. There's so much stigma and othering. And again, the stats are way, way out. NAS says 1 in 98, I think. The USA Centre for Disease Control said 1 in 58 children recently (IT'S AN EPIDEMIC, PANIC, VOTE TRUMP, BAN VACCINES). I reckon it's nearer 1 in 30, if not lower. We're here, we walk amongst you, we're in your offices and your schools and definitely in your IT services and universities. :)) The more people understand it, the more 'that one in the corner with the headphones who never remembers to ask if you had a good weekend' will be seen as perfectly ordinary. And not rude, or emotionless, or weird, just different.

[Bat Macdui]

Also. I would like to know how many people, after reading this thread, have diagnosed themselves or a family member as being autistic. :lol:

Yes, I'll put my hand up to myself and S and my dad :))

Right, I'm going doing something about cardigans. Back in a bit. I cannot over state how much I am enjoying this, btw. :))

[Ruby]

Can I just say though, that your obsession with the M60 was a huge klaxon?

[Bat Macdui]

Can I just say though, that your obsession with the M60 was a huge klaxon?

I file that under 'WHY THE FUCK DID NO-ONE MENTION THIS TO ME??' Yes, I am giving YOU a Look, Ruby. :))

Rebs, I am so so happy for people to talk about whatever they think and feel about themselves on this thread. It doesn't diminish at all. I had a hard journey, yes, but that there's a lot of factors in that, like how autism affects me, the routes I chose, losing my Dad when I was young, it's a mish mash. I have got anger issues about how hard it's been (hello, lovely therapist), but that doesn't take away from how positive I am now.

Also, did you know, loads of autistic women choose an acting type route? It helps with the masking, hugely. :)

[Mrs Danvers]

Can I just say though, that your obsession with the M60 was a huge klaxon?

Sorry Bats but :lol:

I will try to be more patient when Mr D insists we buy exactly the same things in the supermarket that we bought last time and sits and spends a whole evening looking at maps. Bless him :))

[Ruby]

I file that under 'WHY THE FUCK DID NO-ONE MENTION THIS TO ME??' Yes, I am giving YOU a Look, Ruby. :))

:)) I will try to answer this semi-earnestly. I have always thought that people who were clearly a bit autistic ... were just a bit autistic and that's fine. I find people's 'obsessions' interesting and I don't like touching anyway and I am 100% comfortable with them. It hadn't occurred to me that they didn't know, or that they would feel better with a diagnosis. People going for an autism diagnosis has always puzzled me in a way - I didn't know why people needed what I perceived as validation for their personality. It hadn't really occurred to me that people needed an explanation and not just validation - and that diagnosis could provide a sort of road-map for their feelings. It was when you told me about [long word beginning with an A that means you don't know what you're feeling] that it occurred to me that some people might just need to be told they're autistic.