Simon Baron-Cohen can stuff right off

[Smunder Woman]

You do know I'm going to get obsessed with writing a book now, yes? :))

PhD is basically whether learning happens differently in an autistic brain. Just wankier, because there is a Law that PhDs must be as wanky as possible.

[Jet]

Eating disorders and autism are interesting, for me it was never really about being thin, it was about control and numbers (calories in, numbers on the scale) and then because if I get in a routine I find it incredibly hard to break out of that routine, it becomes a bit self fulfilling. I know loads of autistic women who say the same, and also there's a bit chunk of sensory issues in there. If you have real sensory problems with taste, and the texture of food in your mouth, it leads to Avoidant Restrictive Eating Disorder, which still looks like anorexia, but the treatments are different.

That’s really interesting. I didn’t figure out until my early 20s that my disordered eating was always in time of lack of control of some type in other aspect of my life. It was quite a revelation as I had spent years feeling guilty about it because so many people in my teens told me it was attention seeking etc when that was the worst outcome for me - that people would focus on me more as a result.

[Rhodonite]

Thank you so much for posting about this, Bats and Smunder. I admit to having next to no knowledge at all on the subject. I don't think I even realised women found it so hard to get a diagnosis.

Also Bats, thank you for mentioning ARFID. I've never heard the term before, but looked it up and strongly suspect I have this. I don't have any of the weight gain issues, but so many of the other signs ring true and I had a little cry.

[Cerise]

J definitely has ASD traits! As far as I can see, they don’t impact on his life the way the ADHD traits did/do.

[olive]

Smunder, I can see how it could have be really difficult to diagnose Jack (or anyone really). T’s friend A who has aspergers was initially thought to have a number of issues when in reality they are most likely all symptoms of the Aspergers.

There's an overlap in what is called executive function (or executive dysfunction) between autism and ADHD. Executive function basically is your ability to actually do stuff. My executive function is hopeless, which is why I think I have ADHD traits. I have lists in three rooms in the house so I can double check myself before I go to work, otherwise something will get missed (deoderant, filling the cat's water, taking my lunch). If I have an appointment at 3pm, I cannot function before it, because I get a kind of weird paralysis. My procrastination is terrifying, way way beyond 'I should probably do this now'. My short term memory is garbage. I start one thing then another becomes imperative so I abandon the first and wander downstairs in my pants to google soft furnishings. :) I often say that my biggest problem is that I have an autistic's need for things to be ordered and sorted, yet a complete inability to make this all so. It frustrates me hugely and one of the best things about the diagnosis was giving myself a break on this one. I don't beat myself up anymore about it, and I use comedy methods to manage, like post-its on fucking everything.

This is basically T. He has a morning to do list downstairs (ie cereal bowl in sink and pack lunch into school bag), and the same in his bedroom (make bed, put on uniform, brush teeth), instructions written on his school books and taped to his desk at school and yet doesn’t manage to get anything done or remember what he should be doing.

I can’t imagine how difficult and disorienting things must have been for you as you were expected to take on more age appropriate responsibilities.

Thank you both again for explaining and patiently answering so many questions. :))

[Smunder Woman]

It's fine, I like being broadcast only about stuff I'm interested in :))

[Bat Macdui]

It's fine, I like being broadcast only about stuff I'm interested in :))

Actually, there's something I want to ask everyone else, but particularly sal and Pip, who've said that they work with autistic people. I'd be very interested to know how they disclosed, and what your reaction was when you knew, and generally, how other people responded. I have told my manager, but I would like to let more people know because I think it would smooth things. I know that sitting in the corner with my headphones on can make me look aloof and standoff-ish, I know I sometimes get the chit chat wrong, and I would dearly love not to have to mask as much as I do. I don't think my job per se takes so much of my mental energy, but the masking does.

Please don't try and be diplomatic and sugar coat, for one I want to be prepared for responses and for two, I am literal and will take you at face value. :))

[Bat Macdui]

I can’t imagine how difficult and disorienting things must have been for you as you were expected to take on more age appropriate responsibilities.

I went to university and was expected to suddenly adapt to new things, new people, make my own routine, manage a study schedule, buy toiletries (surprisingly difficult), feed myself, manage money, make new friends, find new hobbies, be part of a social whirl and do it all against a backdrop of constant, unceasing conversations and sex and vomiting in adjacent rooms, hearing every noise from the communal bogs (one way) and the kitchen (the other), shouting in acoustically poor corridors and people talking at me. KA_BLOOOEY. :lol: A lot of universities and NAS have clicked on now and have mentors for autistic students. One of my autistic friends does this for York, Hull and Ripon and part of her job is just helping students work out how to live. :)) It would have been absolutely invaluable for me.

Thinking from the perspective of the teachers saying it's been helpful to hear things from an autistic perspective, I am going to recommend Sari Solden's Women with Attention Deficit Disorders. Whilst it's primarily aimed at adults coming to terms with the impact ADHD has on their lives, and finding strategies to deal with it, it is absolutely stuffed with comments and case story-type things from adults with ADHD. It might be helpful in terms of giving insight.

The thing I have found helps me most is meditation, it slows me down enough to think. But I imagine introducing a 7 year old boy with ADHD traits to meditation could be a bit like herding cats. :)) When I first read a lot about it, I read a lot of stuff by people who swear by dietary management. I was dead sniffy about this at first, as I was like 'I bet that's a USA thing to flog things to parents' but the more I've understood from people who are actually ADHD it really does have an appreciable positive impact. A quick google will find you stuff, or any of Dr Halliwell's books (he's massively up himself, but has a lot of useful things to say).

[Pippedydeadeye]

I would very much like to tell you all (all of you) about it, but don’t think I should in a public forum where it could be identifiable. If you don’t mind, I will PM you.

[Bat Macdui]

Oh yes, fine. I hadn't thought about that. Thank you for responding though.

[Smunder Woman]

Pip, would you mind PMing me too please?

[Derek Nimmo]

This is so interesting, as I thought that ADHD and Austism were quite separate but the more I read (this thread is quite the rabbit-hole inducer), the more I understand how blurred the lines are.

(B first twigged something wasn't right when someone said to him at the start of the year that he lacked higher executive function - they weren't kidding - and the reading he did about that led him to ADHD etc etc. The more I read this thread, I can see that he has some autistic traits too. I do feel like an absolute muppet for knowing him for 10+ years and never figuring out what was going on.)

[Pippedydeadeye]

I feel I also need to say it’s not because I’m worried about you lot knowing who *I* am, just that I am actually capable of discretion on occasion.

I’m going to read all links now.

[Zoomer]

This is all very interesting. The more I read about ADHD, the more convinced I am that J has that, either in conjunction with or instead of his other diagnosis.

I made him do an online test I found, and he scored very very highly. I'm going to make him take the test to the doc the next time he goes.

[sally maclennane]

I would very much like to tell you all (all of you) about it, but don’t think I should in a public forum where it could be identifiable. If you don’t mind, I will PM you.

Yes, I will do the same - tonight, when I'm at my laptop as I can't type well on my phone :))

[Livilla]

This is all fascinating stuff, and something I might mention at my next manager's meeting at work, because we talk about making sure that we respect introverts and their work preferences, but have never considered whether anyone in our department is ASD, and things you say bats like about finding masking it a huge drain on your resources is something also we should be considering as part of wellbeing and support.

J has a few ASD traits too - he gets completely obsessed with things (Beast Quest books, currently ), and rocks from side to side when tired. I used to get completely obsessed with things when I was younger too. I don't have a lot of time for the idea that there's a neurotypical platonic form of brain out there, I think it's much more likely that there's a massive range of brain functions and preferences, same as there are in other aspects of biology.

[olive]

University is one of the examples I was thinking about! The more I learn about this the more I’m genuinely in awe that anyone emerges as a functioning adult.

The thing I have found helps me most is meditation, it slows me down enough to think. But I imagine introducing a 7 year old boy with ADHD traits to meditation could be a bit like herding cats. :)) When I first read a lot about it, I read a lot of stuff by people who swear by dietary management. I was dead sniffy about this at first, as I was like 'I bet that's a USA thing to flog things to parents' but the more I've understood from people who are actually ADHD it really does have an appreciable positive impact. A quick google will find you stuff, or any of Dr Halliwell's books (he's massively up himself, but has a lot of useful things to say).

I’ve tried a bit of meditation and it pretty much went as you described. I actually have a call with a friend of a friend who has gone down the diet route.

I will also look up Dr Halliwell, thanks. I’ve been directed to ADDitude mag (website) which is very American and mainly child focused but also has some really interesting free webinars on diagnosis in adults and girls. It’s mainly ADD/ ADHD based though but does talk about the overlap with Autism.

This is so interesting, as I thought that ADHD and Austism were quite separate but the more I read (this thread is quite the rabbit-hole inducer), the more I understand how blurred the lines are.

Same! :)) I’m also curious as to how this affects B in a work context? (Obviously feel free to tell me to mind my own btw).

[Derek Nimmo]

Same! :)) I’m also curious as to how this affects B in a work context? (Obviously feel free to tell me to mind my own btw).

That's a really big question and I'll do my best not to write an essay - one thing I would say is that I often think that if he'd grown up in the kind of family that was a little bit more...open-minded (when he told his Mum he'd been diagnosed, she patted him on the arm and told him that she wasn't scared of him, which he thinks is hilarious :)) ) and had actually helped him get a diagnosis as a kid, his life would have been very different.

To his credit, completely undiagnosed he managed to get himself qualified as a lawyer - entirely the wrong career for him, what with needing a totally ordered mind, the ability to multi-task, take in vast amounts of information yet zero in on detail etc etc - and has been working in the field for 10+ years now.

It is a struggle for him every day though, and he doesn't feel he can 'come out' at work and explain why it would benefit him to use headphones (for example - something it struck me he's also mentioned quite a few times when Bats talked about how much it has helped her above) because he feels it wouldn't go down well in a corporate environment. He has been let go by mutual consent a couple of times, after staying far longer than anyone else in the same situation would, because he's so damned likeable but because (in very broad brushstrokes) he lacks confidence and an ability to present his case clearly and concisely. What's him and what's the ADHD is a slightly moot point here, but he spends so damn long trying to organise himself and to focus that it's bound to have an effect.

When he thought at the start of this year that he had ADHD, he channelled his entire focus into getting a diagnosis and THE DRUGS (his holy grail), and I don't think we had one conversation in six months that didn't focus on this. He finally got his hands on them a few weeks ago and as he put it 'speeding off my tits all day really helps me focus' :lol: However, they're not a magic pill, and (a) there's a payoff in terms of disturbed sleep, dry skin and comedown at the weekend which doesn't fill me with joy, supportive girlf that I am and (b) he is still resistant to doing all of the stuff to help himself that I think you're introducing at an admirably early age - set up the routine and lists that would help him so much, and then follow through. But ironically, it's the condition itself that makes all of that kind of stuff seem so insurmountable to him.

(Feel free to ask anything, but if you wouldn't mind not quoting that would be great as I may well come back and delete.)

[wendy james]

I'm late to this, but am glad you feel you could share Bats.

[smalex]

I didn't realise B had that diagnosis, Del. I feel bad for slating his continual lateness/disorganisation! (although I only ever do it in support of you).