Morganna wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:41 pm
Yes, if people don't want to engage, they won't. I don't know. I think part of me still needs something to hope for, and I don't think that writing off people as hopeless will help. Maybe we are well past that now, but I hope not.
Anyway, this has all strayed a long way from the election. Maybe in a perverse sort of way, when Tory policies start to kick in with a vengeance there will be more unity, as people will have to start pulling together more.
Yes. I just thought that- Maybe we need to stop trying to understand for a bit (I mean, generally speaking) and just let the dust settle. It's going to happen now anyway. I think some/many people will eventually have their minds changed by the biting reality of what is about to come. Obviously just got to hope its not via even further right politics and blame on the poor/immigrants.
There's much we can concentrate efforts on in terms of defending the rights of those who need it, assisting charities and causes trying to repair the damage etc.
Morganna wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:41 pm
As regards changing views - I was referring to the little I know about the book you recommended. If the author has decided that she's not going to let others demand that she teach them, fine. I don't blame her. But then she can't complain that people don't understand her experiences. How can they, unless someone tells them?
But why should those worst affected by a problem be the default responsibles for fixing it/educating people? There are many ways people can learn without being told, and if they are motivated they will. Which is the point I'm making about politics.
Morganna wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:41 pm
But then she can't complain that people don't understand her experiences. How can they, unless someone tells them?
By reading her book or seeking out information elsewhere themselves. I think (hope) that if someone says they've experienced something which is contradictory to my experiences, that my reaction isn't to insist that they prove it, but to see if I can find any more information about it. It's a bit different face to face than online of course; if my black neighbour says our GP is always rude to her, I either believe her or I don't, I can't do my own research.
Yes, I do think it’s a sick kind of double whammy to expect black people to explain racism to white people in order for it to be fixed. Same with making women explain or “prove” sexism to men if they want it fixed.
smalex wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:24 pm
I don't think anyone need be 'dead' to you Lily. But I do think it's difficult to have an unimpeachable red line, but forgive people if their politics is in stark contrast to that red line. It was just interesting to me that the two examples you cited (racism and homophobia) were two of the things where a very simple line could be drawn to our recent politics and where, more than ever, a vote for Johnson and his Tories could clearly be seen as accepting clear views and policies that are racist and homophobic.
I do think a considerable amount of people who voted labour, including me (and lots of us here I suspect) found the labour antisemitics really really difficult. I've had to accept that I'm prepared to put racism in second place, in some circumstances, I think it's 'justified' for a number of reasons. But yes, it turns out I'm willing to tolerate some racism more than I thought I was.
Well, you either have unimpeachable red lines or you don't - so either someone crosses that line or they don't. Someone is either someone you'll engage with or they're not - so are dead to you. I thought that was what you meant.
I don't believe people who voted for either party are necessarily those things. So that's why I don't think I am tolerating them because I don't the people who voted thus were tolerating them either. I am just repeating myself though.
"You first have to find out who you are. Then you have to be it like mad."
Morganna wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:41 pm
As regards changing views - I was referring to the little I know about the book you recommended. If the author has decided that she's not going to let others demand that she teach them, fine. I don't blame her. But then she can't complain that people don't understand her experiences. How can they, unless someone tells them?
I read that book and it really jolted me as it explains even when you don't think you're being racist you are because - well, I'm not going to start blathering on about that now, but it was worth reading, anyway. I really recommend it and think it's very important to read it, as it totally changes your opinion of yourself and your actions, and makes you see them from the perspective of someone else. (Sorry for the edits, my English has gone to pot.)
Last edited by Lily on Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"You first have to find out who you are. Then you have to be it like mad."
I will read it. I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with it, as I haven’t read it yet, but because of that I can’t know whether I think it supports or refutes what I think about engaging with ‘the other side’.
Ella77 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:03 pm
Yes, I do think it’s a sick kind of double whammy to expect black people to explain racism to white people in order for it to be fixed. Same with making women explain or “prove” sexism to men if they want it fixed.
It's a very good book.
Yes, especially because so much of it is demanded, and proof expected. Do your own fucking Googling mate, and don't expect me to relive unpleasant life experiences so you can then just take my words in bad faith, and then just go "nahhhhh".
We can all Google structural racism/sexism etc, rather than expect a person to give us a seminar or write us an essay. This of course is different than if this comes up in conversation and we ask some questions.
Ella77 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:03 pm
Yes, I do think it’s a sick kind of double whammy to expect black people to explain racism to white people in order for it to be fixed. Same with making women explain or “prove” sexism to men if they want it fixed.
Yes, especially because so much of it is demanded, and proof expected. Do your own fucking Googling mate, and don't expect me to relive unpleasant life experiences so you can then just take my words in bad faith, and then just go "nahhhhh”.
Yes. So much of this boils down to “tell me about some of the worst things that have ever happened to you, and I’ll decide if they matter”.
Ella77 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:03 pm
Yes, I do think it’s a sick kind of double whammy to expect black people to explain racism to white people in order for it to be fixed. Same with making women explain or “prove” sexism to men if they want it fixed.
Yes, especially because so much of it is demanded, and proof expected. Do your own fucking Googling mate, and don't expect me to relive unpleasant life experiences so you can then just take my words in bad faith, and then just go "nahhhhh”.
Yes. So much of this boils down to “tell me about some of the worst things that have ever happened to you, and I’ll decide if they matter”.
...and also decide also whether they believe you, because they have never ever seen that themselves. Despite not being black/woman/jewish/all of the above/etc
