Tiny Turtle Hatchlings

[Kenickie]

:mog: I'm sure it was a bit infuriating in the middle of the night but that is a bit adorable.

[Rhodonite]

How's the sleep or lack of going?

Conchie was 5 months old yesterday! It's just flying by.

I do baby sign with him on a Tuesday now, and swimming on a Wednesday. I had said I wouldn't bother with classes this time around, but thought it might be quite good to do a couple with him. Especially as I didn't take J to swimming lessons, and he still can't swim at 5!

[Kenickie]

Such a happy boy! He also like really grown up there.

I got mine wetsuits months ago with the intention of going swimming and still haven't got round to it. I think they'll be grown out of them before we make it to a pool.

Glad M's sleep is improving. We're still on two hourly wake ups. This is just a phase, right? We've also gone back to leaking nappies and lots of being sick (especially on me) so I feel like they're constantly needing full changes, as am I. Topsy leaned forward a couple of days ago and was sick into an extension lead.

P and I had a proper talk about whether to have more and he won't even consider it until they're two, and generally is very against. That makes me feel quite sad but I guess it's good to not think about it for a while. It feels like it's all going so fast and often is hard to fully appreciate and enjoy things. I know I'm lucky to have two but I feel like I'm not ready to draw a line under it. We've just moved them out of their pushchair carrycots into the proper seats.

[Leap]

Conchie Tuddle! HEDGEHOGS This has been a great catch up.

We’re not in a great sleep place, but I’m putting it down to leap 6 as I absolutely can’t deal with all the strides we’ve made being undone without any other kind of rationale. Yesterday I had bipolar baby* - constant cycle of hysterical bursts of joy followed immediately by wailing, coupled with sleep refusal. She eventually went down around 10 pm and then woke every 50 minutes until 2ish She was much more herself today thankfully, and I’m just riding it out with my fingers crossed.

I definitely had a period of time where like P when I couldn’t even consider the conversation of another. I think especially in a sicky/bad sleep phase it’s just impossible to imagine doing it again on purpose. I get that he sounds much more resolute but it does sound like the conversation will happen again, and you’ll have a boatload of adorable baby photos to distract you both with

For me, our plan was always to have another if possible, but we need to be mindful of timings given we might need to go down the IVF route again, paying ourselves this time, our ages etc. But I find myself getting honestly quite panicky when I think about Piper not having us all to herself I absolutely know we would love another baby, but I’ve seen in my groups how it does change the dynamic with older children and I feel quite pre-emptively sad about my wee sausage having to share me with someone else :melodrama: Hopefully it really will be something we get to deal with one day, I just wish we had a few more years to play with.

*I know this is like saying e.g. a tidy person has OCD but :safespace:

[Leap]

M’s sleep is still pretty poor, but improving. I’ve managed to find some reserves so I’m now doing my best to be very consistent with her when she does wake and won’t go back to sleep. Lots of shh-ing and lying her back down, we’ll get there .

Oh and I meant to add I know how hard this can be and you’re doing so well to stick with it, especially given how you’ve been feeling. On good nights I will try to settle Hop in her cot on wake ups as I’m worried I’m teaching her to wake up for cuddles and milk and smiles with Daddy, but on the bad ones it’s all I can do to get up and just do the thing that works best. Last night was a write off - I know she can’t be hungry again after 50 minutes, but we were on night 2 of awful sleep and I could barely lift her from the cot, never mind work up the energy to do more soothing and whatever that I had already done all evening with little break (and zero success). It was boob and bed and I will tackle everything else when I have the capacity for it.

[Kenickie]

I am definitely doing the path of least resistance so far. I can't really face battling with them at night.

That makes total sense about feeling like that about sharing your oldest. I wonder if having twins is part of the reason I feel keen to have more as I don't have that giving me hesitation, but I see all the really nice things about siblings. I might well feel different when the hormones have died down and mine are constantly fighting. ;)

The age thing is very relevant as if we wait two years before even discussing another I'll be very close to forty which might mean it's not possible any way. But P would have had kids a decade ago and during that time hadn't ever made me feel pressured so I feel it's only fair to do the same for him now we've swapped opinions.

I think part of it is I feel a bit cheated out of only going through each stage once. I expect it's always sad to be done with newborns/babies/toddlers etc, but at least if you've had two or more singletons you get to have another go, or to see things come back out/be reused. And maybe it's all a bit less about pure survival so you get a bit more time to appreciate things. But obviously I appreciate that I'm lucky to have two full stop. And that maybe a singleton would feel just as much like a whirlwind as two. ;)

I hope the whole process is as simple as it can be for you, Leap, if you do decide to do it again.

[Rhodonite]

It's really difficult to know what to do for the best, when thinking about another. We waited until J was 2 before we started trying for another, but then it took ages to actually get pregnant again, so there's nearly 5 years between them. It's a bigger gap than I would have liked, but it's just the way it worked out. I know friends who got pregnant as soon as they started trying again, but thought it would take longer!

I'm fairly sure we're done at two, but I still can't put the idea of another right out of my head. I'm 38 this year though, and D is 42, and what if it takes years* to get pregnant again. There's also this nagging thought that we'd be pushing our luck if we tried again.

*just after conchie was born, I was honestly trying to work out the smallest possible gap, I'd be prepared to have! My mum got pregnant again, when my eldest sister was 6 months old!

[Kenickie]

It is a really difficult decision. I've had a nightmare week (I'm ill, babies are ill, P was in the office two consecutive days so I did two nights on my own where they barely slept, and I had a day on my own where they kept throwing up everywhere and leaking through their nappies and both of them cried constantly unless they were being held so each change etc was a real battle) so now I'm feeling like I definitely can't cope with any more. Still, onwards and hopefully upwards.

In the midst of all this I made it to a baby group where once again I had the 'oh yeah, I'm pregnant and my toddler is only 16 months now so when the babies come it'll be like having twins!'. Obviously I just went 'oh, lol, yeah' to be polite when internally I was screaming:
Yes, it will totally be the same.
Oh, apart from financially as your toddler and baby won't be in the exact same clothes size so you'll not need double, and you'll be able to pass down or reuse a crib, cot, car seat, bouncy chair or a million other things that they need at the exact same time. And it'll not be the same as you will have two lots of time off work on full pay, or only have a short time of two in childcare before free hours kick in.
Oh, apart from going through that whole fourth trimester or sleep regression at the exact same time.
Oh, apart from feeding two tiny babies who can only have milk and for months won't be able to feed themselves at all or hold their own food or bottle and will spend hours feeding.
Oh, apart from trying to get to grips with two brand new people at the same time and work out their personalities and likes and dislikes and what works to soothe them.
In fact, apart from doing the above whilst trying to get to grips with becoming a parent.
Oh, apart from having to spend hours holding two tiny people who can't support themselves at all rather than one tiny baby and a toddler who might be able to sit themselves next to you and cuddle in.
Oh, apart from the logistics of every single small thing, such as getting two non moving babies from one part of the house to another, getting them to or from the car and your destinations, fitting a double pram into shops/ coffee places, being terrified that a wheelchair will come onto the bus or train as there's no way you can fold up your pushchair and hold two babies, or picking two babies up, or positioning them for a nap on you if that's the only way they'll sleep.
Oh, apart from spending months and months constantly having to choose between the needs of two people who can't understand anything and can only express themselves through crying.
Oh, apart from the months when you have two tiny people who can't do anything to entertain themselves.
Oh, apart from never being able to properly participate in any kind of baby class as you pay more than any other attendee to spend twice as much time feeding/preventing meltdowns/changing nappies and then choosing which child will get to do the actions/have the massage/be carried around the room/use the instrument/play with the toy.
Oh, apart from being asked even more intrusive questions about your fertility etc by strangers, having to listen to everyone's story of their uncle's friend who was a twin, or their thoughts about how terrible having twins are.
Oh, apart from people not bothering to learn your children's names as it's fine to just refer to them as 'the twins'.
Oh, apart from a million other things.
I love having twins and I don't want to send either back ;) but babies change massively in their first year so having two consecutively is not the same as having twins.

Oh wow, that was a lot more moany than I thought. I do totally get that two children is hard and busy full stop, and having a small gap brings its own challenges which I wouldn't necessarily get, and parenting is difficult whatever your situation and we all need to support each other. I guess the time taken to feed two babies at night allows for a lot of internet raging. ;)

Rant over! )

[Leap]

God, that was amazing to read. We well know that sometimes people are breathtakingly stupid or rude, but these are people having a live experience of what an enormous handful (!) one newborn baby is - on what planet would they ever think to express their thoughts on a second by saying that to someone with twins? I get that it’s the sort of throwaway thing you might say to someone else (or have said to you) but it just takes a small pause to think it’s at the very least irrelevant and inaccurate to say it to you. I genuinely think about you a lot and how you do it when I do little things like take Hop upstairs or put her in the car. What does the other baby do? How do you have the energy to do both? I know the stretch comes from necessity and many of us ‘could’ do it if needed, but that doesn’t make me any less amazed when I’m just wrangling one baby and wondering what I would do if I had another at the exact same stage and neediness and immobility.

I also think a lot about how my friends have done it when also pregnant, or also with a toddler, or also with a teenager because I know those things are hard too, and I’m sure being pregnant again right now is a bit scary and overwhelming but honestly these idiot people can fuck right off, then when they get there fuck off some more

Your two days without P sound absolutely wild, I hope you’re getting a little bit of whatever self care or rest looks like for you just now.

[Cerise]

You should totally just deadpan it, Ken, and say, “No it won’t.”

[Kenickie]

Awww, thanks. I'd actually come back to delete my woe is me rant as I feel a bit embarrassed about it now. I'm not sure I should post in the early hours when I've had a bad week. ;) It's nice to have got it out and let off some steam though.

It's definitely just thoughtlessness of the sort that any parent gets one way or another ('oh, why just the one/so many?' 'oh, that's a big/small age gap, good luck!'), it just came at a time when I was a bit at the end of my tether.

And it's not a competition as there's swings and roundabouts with everything. Being pregnant and taking care of a child must be so difficult, and at least if you've got two immobile children you can safely leave them in the same room where they can't harm each other which must be tricky with a baby and a toddler. Plus, I know that it's also down to how tricky each individual child is, and I'm lucky in lots of ways with that.

[Marth]

Don't be embarrassed about it, Ken. It was really insightful to read so thank you for posting that. If you can't let off steam here, where can you?

It reminded me of when people say they are being a single parent because their bloke has gone away for a few days. They really have no idea, and I have to bite my tongue.

[Jupiter]

Ken, please don't delete your post. I often think of you and am in awe of how you manage both babies. You are doing a fantastic job. It's good to see you talk about the reality of it all. And please keep posting photos. I even have E and A cooing over them every time you put up a photo on FB!

[F'Artiste]

Please don’t delete the post Ken - parenting is as much about the lows as well as the highs, and your post was really insightful.

[Kenickie]

You are all very kind.

I can't believe people would say that to you, Marth! I think being a single parent is in a whole other league and I'm in awe of anyone who does it.

[Hazey_Jane]

Oh Ken

[Brier]

No, don't delete the post. That was a daft thing for that woman to say and your reaction to it was perfectly valid.

I agree with Cerise, don't just smile through it, tell her straight. A childfree woman at work yesterday said I should give Mr B a break for not pulling his weight around the house because he works full-time, and she got a good mouthful back about how much harder it is to work and then also care for 3 children on your own than to be at work and come home when the kids are already fed and changed and in bed. I was ANNOYED and justifiably so. She knows as much about being a working parent as your woman knows about having twins - sweet F.A - so should know better than to say things like that. Call it a teaching moment

[Brier]

Sorry, that became a bit of a rant of its own.

[Kenickie]

Oh that definitely deserves a rant! Similarly, my mum kept going on the other day about how amazing it is that P changes nappies, 'even when you're out.' :Ella:

I thought I should be also posting positive stuff, so I'm really pleased that we made it to six months. It feels like a good milestone, and that I can finally relax about SIDS. Although, when I googled to double check that, the first result read 'After six months it's very rare for a baby to die of SIDS. After that we see them dying from other types of sleep-related death like suffocation, or accidental suffocation and strangulation in bed.'

I'm also quite amazed that they made it this far just on my breast milk -I was very ambivalent about it while I was pregnant and assumed I'd have to formula or mixed feed. It's been really tough at times but I'm lucky that there's been no major issues so it's worked out as I think it's close to the stage where it becomes a nice thing and it definitely makes going out without a plan much much easier - I think otherwise trying to make sure I had enough formula for both would be another thing putting me off leaving the house.

They had food for the first time today. Topsy definitely got on better than Tim but I think he's more under the weather still so that could change. They both happily gnawed on cucumber though which was so sweet.

Their sleep is still terrible but they're still ill at the moment so I live in hope that one day they'll do decent stretches simultaneously. Maybe when they're teenagers I guess. ;)

How's everyone else doing?

[Leap]

Oh god, I cackled out loud at that sleep fact That is exactly the kind of reassurance I find when googling: the gift of more horrors you hadn’t even considered

I felt the same as you about six months, it’s definitely been what feels like our biggest and most important milestone so far, partly because of the changes that happen around it (solids, and for us moving Hop into her own room) but for me it was mostly the reflection on breastfeeding after so much time. My brain still boggles that you do it for both of them. I just rambled on for a bit but I’ve deleted it as I think you’ve summed it up really well and the more I wrote the more I seemed to be erring into lactivism which isn’t how I feel at all - just happy that the thing that worked for us best is the thing that worked for us best.

I need to go to sleep so I’ll come back but BRIER - how spectacularly stupid and rude of your colleague, I am DELIGHTED you set her straight.